Racing Discussions

Good luck getting it to sync, I had huge issues with pc and gave up.

I was recently reminded by WritesCode4Food something I've said in the past to a few of you on how to improve your lap times.  If you want to get better at something, tie one hand behind your back.  Say what??  

Yes, that's right.  If you want to improve, make what you are doing twice as hard as it normally would be.  The great Walter Payton of the Chicago Bears was famous for his hill sprints where he would sprint up a large hill over and over.  Many of his teammates would try to join him during this exercise but quickly found it to be too difficult.  And it was!  It was way more difficult than just doing sprints on level ground.  But the strength, speed, and endurance it gave Walter Payton, made level ground sprinting seem easy.  And that's how he achieved 10 seasons with over 1,000 yards per season.

All endeavors can be managed in this same way to maximize performance, even here in the hobby of Forza sim-racing.  How?  By doing laps in the Platinum level car build.  By doing a fair amount of laps in the worst performing build, you gain a much greater appreciation for the fastest drivers, but more than this, when you return to Gold/Silver/Bronze/Copper you will improve your times.  Suddenly, and almost mysteriously, you will be faster than you were before.  You'll have greater car control and lower lap times.  And with this, greater confidence and fresh motivation to achieve what looked impossible before.

No pain, no gain.

Something new is in the air this season I can see.  Maybe it's eries's return to form and defending his title.  Maybe it's because we have 3 IFCA Trans Am Masters Challenge Champions competing at the same time.  Maybe it's all the "new blood" first timers to the series.  Or maybe people are starting to see how competitive the cars and the drivers are going to be with the revised bonuses, driver ratings, and car builds.  Whatever it is, there is a sense of urgency and a feeling that everyone seems to understand that there is equal opportunity for success for anyone who really wants it.

For all the new guys, please display the correct race # on your cars. Any number above #17 will suffice.  This is our only livery requirement.  

Be reminded that there are many bonus point incentives you can take advantage of here at the "IFCA Trans Am Masters Challenge" such as earning 1.5pts for being one of the top 2 fastest practice laps.  3-8 earns 1 bonus point, and 9-24 earns a half bonus point.  You can pick up a bonus point for breaking the track lap record during the race, and a bonus point for setting the fastest race lap too.  There is also a bonus point for pole position.  There is our performance bonus program based on your rating and expected finishing order. And we also incorporate your practice lap result with your qualifying result, thus connecting the two so that both have equal value.

In the finale at VIR Full, it's a double bonus round, all points are doubled including 6pts x 2 for making every race of the regular season.  You must race a minimum of 4 regular season races to be eligible for the grand finale at VIR Full. You will get a 5pt x 2 bonus if you race 5 races, or a 4pt x 2 bonus if you only race 4 races.

Our series is roughly based on the real-life Trans Am SVRA series where there is a mix of old iron versus new.  The idea was to offer a wide range of cars that can be fully tuned.  The other idea was to fully challenge every driver regardless of talent.  As the name of the series implies we want to test your mastery of Forza 7 by offering you very few restraints in terms of tuning, assists, and formats. All that we ask of our drivers is race hard but race clean.  Any contact is frowned upon just like in a real series.  If you can't pass someone clean, then you shouldn't try to.  And always remember the "IFCA Golden Rule", if contact results in your competitor leaving the racing surface, you must give their position back asap.

Most of all, this is for fun.  We aren't racing for money or sponsors.  We are racing for bragging rights and good sportsmanship, because the only good pass is a clean pass.  So have fun out there, respect your fellow racers, and drive hard.  

There will be some jitters during the pace lap I assure you, and turn 1 is especially difficult, so try not to run anyone over at the start (Nova).  It's a long race, and you'll have plenty of time to gain position.  And remember, don't jump the start.  You are allowed to accelerate only after your car reaches the start/finish line.

If you do have a bad race incident, please allow the Race Director to sort it all out after the race.  Don't start yelling at people and make a bad situation worse.  And please don't rage quit.  Even if you finish in last place you will still earn points so that you can still salvage your season.

Again, for the new racers please read the IFCA Mission Statement if you haven't so that you have a better understanding of what our direction at the IFCA is. 
https://ifca.forumotion.com/t6819-ifca-mission-vision-value-statements

Thanks, and good luck this season!

Your Benevolent Dictator,
GTDon

Let's Talk About Passing!

Last night during the race, I was hit in the right rear 1/4 panel by another racer passing beyond his skill level. His fastest lap in rivals was 0.2 secs slower than mine. We were on lap 3, warming up the tires. I am still learning to drive in Simulator mode for steering, so that bump caused a violent snap of the car, which I nearly caught; however, it led to me losing at least 4 places.

That and some other incidents are why I want to agree with Don's sentiments and give specific examples of quality racing.

First, I've been passed by the top 5 fastest drivers in a Bronze build while they are in slower Gold or Platinum builds. They've NEVER touched my car.

Think about it, they are a build that is 1 to 2 seconds slower than my car if they were using Bronze, yet they have the talent to pass me without touching me because they know how to drive! They are faster in a slower build because they are smooth and in control.

Even when they battle themselves at the front, I think they rarely touch each other in a way that will disrupt the opponent's car. They keep their position if they can't pass clean and hold it.

The driver last night hurt my race to gain one spot while driving his car beyond how he could safely control it for a point early in the race.

Paddy and I had some great racing later on. In rivals, Paddy's best time was 1.4 seconds slower than mine. He didn't have time to practice. During the race, though, I caught him, and by then, he was running consistent 1:16.2s, which was only 0.3 seconds faster than my best lap in that car on that track.

Did I make an aggressive move to pass him? Nope. I could have dive-bombed him. I had a chance to make a sketchy pass on the inside or outside at the very limit of my ability in that car while I was getting faster. Did I do it? Nope.

My 95 Vette had more grip, his 70 Vette more power and because our skills are pretty close, I thought it's not worth it to make an aggressive pass beyond my ability to safely control the car because long term I may not be able to hold the place. Paddy had picked up pace since qualifying and practice.

This was unlike the other driver that hit me. Sure, during the race, the other driver had a fastest lap, a 1/2 second quicker than I did; however, he wasn't running consistently. If he can't run consistently quick, why bother passing? Does he think that style will work in the top 5 of the leaderboard? Nope

This isn't the multi-player lobbies!

In the Season 16 finale, another car was in a faster car for the track and running faster laps. On the straightaways, I could see him make up a massive amount of time. He had slightly better brakes too.

All he had to do to pass me safely was stay on my back bumper until the corner before the long straight, then pass me cleanly on the straight. Instead, he dive-bombed me on a corner, hit me and slowed us both down. He gave me the spot back (unlike the 1st race for Season 17 when I was wrecked); however, we both lost valuable speed for a car behind us to catch up.

Dive bombing always slows both cars down because both are off their line. That allows cars behind them to catch up. In general, it's a desperate move when two cars and drivers are evenly matched.

At that race on Sebring, the other driver was way faster on the straights. Instead of knowing the performance of his car and mine, he made an aggressive move that hurt our overall time on track which sometimes is the difference in a final spot in the race due to pitting.

Would Don, Chevy, or Eries have dive-bombed me like that? Nope. Knowing they are faster on the straightaway, they would have made a safe pass that way.

Last night RiceRocketAsian wasn't as fast as me, so on a straightaway, he pulled over. I've done the same for drivers I know are faster in a given car on a given track. If he and I were running similar lap times at the ragged edge for our talent, I wouldn't have expected him to do that. I would have raced him like I raced Paddy. Clean

Passing only if he made a big mistake.

"If you can't control the car to pass cleanly, nor cleanly out brake them, you aren't passing due to talent. You aren't a better, faster driver!"

BTW I have made these mistakes passing. I've learned from them. Suppose I make these mistakes again? Call me on it.

WritesCode4Food wrote:Let's Talk About Passing!

Last night during the race, I was hit in the right rear 1/4 panel by another racer passing beyond his skill level. His fastest lap in rivals was 0.2 secs slower than mine. We were on lap 3, warming up the tires. I am still learning to drive in Simulator mode for steering, so that bump caused a violent snap of the car, which I nearly caught; however, it led to me losing at least 4 places.

That and some other incidents are why I want to agree with Don's sentiments and give specific examples of quality racing.

First, I've been passed by the top 5 fastest drivers in a Bronze build while they are in slower Gold or Platinum builds. They've NEVER touched my car.

Think about it, they are a build that is 1 to 2 seconds slower than my car if they were using Bronze, yet they have the talent to pass me without touching me because they know how to drive! They are faster in a slower build because they are smooth and in control.

Even when they battle themselves at the front, I think they rarely touch each other in a way that will disrupt the opponent's car. They keep their position if they can't pass clean and hold it.

The driver last night hurt my race to gain one spot while driving his car beyond how he could safely control it for a point early in the race.

Paddy and I had some great racing later on. In rivals, Paddy's best time was 1.4 seconds slower than mine. He didn't have time to practice. During the race, though, I caught him, and by then, he was running consistent 1:16.2s, which was only 0.3 seconds faster than my best lap in that car on that track.

Did I make an aggressive move to pass him? Nope. I could have dive-bombed him. I had a chance to make a sketchy pass on the inside or outside at the very limit of my ability in that car while I was getting faster. Did I do it? Nope.

My 95 Vette had more grip, his 70 Vette more power and because our skills are pretty close, I thought it's not worth it to make an aggressive pass beyond my ability to safely control the car because long term I may not be able to hold the place. Paddy had picked up pace since qualifying and practice.

This was unlike the other driver that hit me. Sure, during the race, the other driver had a fastest lap, a 1/2 second quicker than I did; however, he wasn't running consistently. If he can't run consistently quick, why bother passing? Does he think that style will work in the top 5 of the leaderboard? Nope

This isn't the multi-player lobbies!

In the Season 16 finale, another car was in a faster car for the track and running faster laps. On the straightaways, I could see him make up a massive amount of time. He had slightly better brakes too.

All he had to do to pass me safely was stay on my back bumper until the corner before the long straight, then pass me cleanly on the straight. Instead, he dive-bombed me on a corner, hit me and slowed us both down. He gave me the spot back (unlike the 1st race for Season 17 when I was wrecked); however, we both lost valuable speed for a car behind us to catch up.

Dive bombing always slows both cars down because both are off their line. That allows cars behind them to catch up. In general, it's a desperate move when two cars and drivers are evenly matched.

At that race on Sebring, the other driver was way faster on the straights. Instead of knowing the performance of his car and mine, he made an aggressive move that hurt our overall time on track which sometimes is the difference in a final spot in the race due to pitting.

Would Don, Chevy, or Eries have dive-bombed me like that? Nope. Knowing they are faster on the straightaway, they would have made a safe pass that way.

Last night RiceRocketAsian wasn't as fast as me, so on a straightaway, he pulled over. I've done the same for drivers I know are faster in a given car on a given track. If he and I were running similar lap times at the ragged edge for our talent, I wouldn't have expected him to do that. I would have raced him like I raced Paddy. Clean

Passing only if he made a big mistake.

"If you can't control the car to pass cleanly, nor cleanly out brake them, you aren't passing due to talent. You aren't a better, faster driver!"

BTW I have made these mistakes passing. I've learned from them. Suppose I make these mistakes again? Call me on it.

A sentiment shared by all, especially when you are the driver who gets hit.  It's not hard to detect when a faster driver is over taking you or is clearly faster.  

In real racing you get a blue flag wave, meaning you need to get out of the way or make way for the faster driver.  We don't have a blue flag here in Forza, but we do have a good idea when we should let the faster driver by for an easy pass.  This isn't to suggest you need to give up.  After eries bobbled and allowed me to gain a position over him, it took a couple of laps for him to catch up and be in a position to pass.  I didn't wait for him, but I knew that once he got close it would be time to relent and let him by because I knew his car was faster.  Fighting a clearly faster driver just holds both cars up, Better is to let him go and follow him so the guy behind you doesn't start catching both of you.

Happy Thanksgiving boys!

Yeah I know this is largely an American holiday, but since the sentiment is a positive one to emulate, it seems good to share it.  The IFCA is a form of fantasy entertainment where we can all have a bit of fun utilizing the simulated approximation of cars we will never afford or drive in real life.  As such, we are a part of the entertainment industry which is little more than in-depth escapism.  Escape from politics, religion, and serious life issues mostly.  It's here that you can get away from all those things and exclusively foment on motorsports as much as you like instead.

Just to make this post relevant to the topic, it's interesting to note that Wednesday's practice race demonstrated the virtues of the format we use.  For instance, we all agree that the 1995 Corvette is hands down the best car in Group 12a this season.  Some have even suggested that it is "broken."  And while this may be true,  it wasn't broken enough to win on Wed.  

So what does this say about the OP 95 Vette?  Not much really.  It does say a lot more about the Forza Masters Challenge format however.  

It says that even when you have a car or two that are superior, the application of driver skill ratings and the venue itself can nullify or equalize the advantages of OP cars.  Put a fast guy like ChevyPower in a Platinum Corvette, and he's going to have to be perfect to win.  It's not that he isn't going to be competitive, it's just that he is going to have to really focus even at his skill level.  He managed 2nd place, which is very impressive still.  Why?  Because he was able to beat everyone (other than the eventual winner) even if they were in a Copper or Bronze or Silver level Corvette.  The rain track played a huge part in all this as well practically taking most of the Corvette's advantages of speed and acceleration away.  This left the door open for a decent driver in any of the non-Corvettes to have a chance.  

The Gold level Viper of GTDon's was a strong candidate even though it does not run the times of either the 70 or 95 Corvettes regardless of trim level class.  It is slower and has less acceleration but in the rain this didn't matter as much.  There was just enough equality between the cars (OP or not) and the driver skill levels  (Copper/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum), for the Viper to claim the pole, barely gain the fastest race lap, and yes, take the victory.  But there was no room for error. Absolutely none. The Viper had to be flawless for the most part with a clear track.  And so it was.  

The Wed night race also illustrated that the differences are very fine in that if you haven't practiced enough, being in a 95 Corvette won't likely be enough even if you are in a better than Platinum build.  And honestly this is the practical intent of the format.  To get the cars close enough so that even with a performance advantage, drivers still must make a good effort to do well.  To open doors of opportunity for those who want to apply themselves is required.  And this, just to give all of us underdogs a real chance at success once in a while.




MOPAR or NOCAR
GTDon

To put it into more perspective, rivals is slightly faster then the online racing, and even here I ran close to 200 laps if not more and scored only 2 sub 35s, a 1:34.9 and one crazy 1:34.7 lap.

Average Im running high 35s as it is almost impossible, like winning the lottery to get a single lap where all falls into place and then following thst up with a similar lap. If you miss your mark by a hair, if you go in slightly too fast, brake too much or to little etc, high 35s or even 36s are gonna happen.

The 95 or 70 corvette has never been the best car at this track, there are better ones.

What you honestly need to do is try and get as consistent as possible, dont overdrive.

Have fun cause hell this is gonna be an awesome race.

Was in a lobby with Don earlier (not today), was leading comfortably, and one off, just one, car took ages to get back to track and where is Don? Oh that spec in the distance in front, this track is an equalizer of note

The 95 Corvette best track was cat with 00 stang next then at brands I would assume anything mid engine should dominate In the rain or do fairly well the Corvette was ok till I got slapped with the platinum build for me now the struggle is real it took me 18 laps in rival to get a 35.2 which I used all the track and lap felt perfect and I'm still .5 off the lead time Sonoma the 95 seemed ok the 00 is faster at Sonoma I personally believe a lot of car choice is made off the first track which can make seem whatever car is dominant there the car to beat in reality if someone hits a time that's fast everyone myself included jumps in it and puts the time and tweaks into making it better then when you jump in a diff car not so much development or time in the car feels horrible making the car you put time in or develop a tune that fits your style seem so much better... Example staffy he didn't want to use the car everyone was probably going to be in he chose the Lambo knowing cat was just going to be a a ok race but the next 2 races he should be very competitive he's developed car into a rocketship

Chevy we have said it many times, race all the tracks before you choose a car. I didnt want the 95 but then you went and picked it, so my choice was based on this as well as guessing the outcomes.

Best of all is, most pick the same car, cry that it is broken and never realizes that it actually is NOT the best over the three tracks.

The Lambo is very good. The NSX is an absolute beast, except Cat. If someone chose it, well done. But that still isnt the best, lol

Thats always the problem, which is why I went with the GT previous race, I knew how it stacked up on all three tracks.

PS after testing Don already knew which cars will dominate which tracks. We couldnt cut the 95 or 70 too much as it would not be good enough on the other tracks, it is still a good car, if you put time and effort in, my tune vastly differs for the rain track than what it was at Cat. Im litterally a second a lap faster in the rain build than the cat build. I was running best hitting 1:35.8s with my catalunya tune.

The 35.2 in Plat is good, I was only managing 35.4s when I realized that I remain Gold and not Plat.

its not the car as much as the tires. i tested my car picks at all 3 tracks. the vette just beat out the bmw, which is 1 of the best handling cars with bronze tires. now with that beaning said there is two guys i watch to see what they pick, chevy is one and sox is the other. i had picked the bmw until testing it agaist the vette. for me the vette beat the bmw by 3tenth's at every track even in the rain. tires is always the key when choosing a car. pick a fast car with low handling #'s and you place in the top 5. you loose your current tire package and go down a level on the next tire package. i believe the tires go down by .2 for each class. lets say copper tires at 6.2 handling, bronze tires 6.0. silver tires go down to 5.8 handling and so on. you must pay attention

Good points one and all!  It's reflective thinking like this that helps everyone to see things in ways that can direct the IFCA going forward.  

As a sneak peek of Season 18, which is to be our last and final FM7 season before the arrival of FM8 sometime in the spring of 2023, we will pair down each of the two classes (Group 6 & Group 12a) to just 5 competitive cars a piece from our current list.  Each of the 5 cars will again be specifically tested for the selected tracks.

If FM8 should be released before the end of Season 18, we will call the season and announce a champion at that time.  If FM8 arrives sometime after Season 18, we will go into a Spec mode single weekly race holding pattern, as we await FM8 to hit the shelves.  That is, each week we will select a different single specific car to race but there will be no seasonal points.

Once FM8 does arrive, we will probably take an entire month off to learn the new game before executing any new formats.  Everyone will need time to gain some experience, to acclimate, and to collect enough cars and credits before jumping into serious league competition.

Our hope and at the same time fear is that FM8 will be a literal console sim-racing game changer.  Why the fear then?  Because it could practically make any league including the IFCA obsolete or redundant.  T10 could supplant any and all leagues with a correct league/club system of their own to include their own rating system.  The only reason for the IFCA to exist at that point would be as just another Forza club.  And if that is the price we have to pay to have a totally overhauled game that has proper club functions similar to FM1, and cumulative club categorized leaderboards, and revised host controlled lobbies, an official rating system that works, and structured series competition support for national and international racing, then so be it.  iRacing has done this years ago, so why not T10?

See you at the track,
GTDon

ZAR Eries wrote:PS after testing Don already knew which cars will dominate which tracks. We couldnt cut the 95 or 70 too much as it would not be good enough on the other tracks,  it is still a good car, if you put time and effort in, my tune vastly differs for the rain track than what it was at Cat. Im litterally a second a lap faster in the rain build than the cat build. I was running best hitting 1:35.8s with my catalunya tune.

The 35.2 in Plat is good, I was only managing 35.4s when I realized that I remain Gold and not Plat.

That doesn't seem fair considering Don is a competitor. I know he's fast. Way faster than me due to years in the game, however, that's giving him another advantage. Why can't that information be shared?

I tried every car on all three tracks in Platinum, Silver, and Bronze builds. For me, it was which car was I most consistent in on all three tracks without having to put in long hours. If could have had access to information about which car performed well at each track I could have saved time on car selection and spent more time on practicing.

Then Codes be part of the testing team, as everyone that tested has an advantage in the end of the day. So you testing for season 18.

We asked so many times, come help, but to date not a single and I mean single person helps.

Information sharing, Don does and I do too, every been in a lobby with us before season starts we happily state which cars should be best on the tracks, but for sure we aint gonna go post anything, its like the lottery, you can win if you have made the effort to go buy a ticket.

We have had many people pop in or do a lap or two with us, to which we share exactly such info, but can I tell you something, it doesnt make a difference as almost all just follow whatever leading time is on the LB.

How did I know which car, which track? Maybe the fact that I ran all 20 cars a total of no less than 20 laps each on the tracks, some take way more. Thats more than 400+ laps every season.

To your point of long hours and not being able to do it, well thats up to you, or is it fair for someone to run 400 laps and then give you a handout.

When I stated Don and I knew which cars would be best it was because we ran all of them for many many laps, thats how, it is something anyone can do, its not a secret, its putting in laps and getting the know this yourself.

So to summarize you want me as example to run all the cars, spending hours and hours, come to you and say, okay Codes use only these 4 cars? Can you see the irony of what you are actually saying.

One reason for spending so much time is that Don can post the builds ahead of time so everyone has time to run the cars.

PS I litterally decided to run the 95 in the last 3 days before the season starts. I wanted to run something different and so did Don actually so nope no advantage actually as neither of us are running the best cars.

WritesCode4Food wrote:

ZAR Eries wrote:PS after testing Don already knew which cars will dominate which tracks. We couldnt cut the 95 or 70 too much as it would not be good enough on the other tracks,  it is still a good car, if you put time and effort in, my tune vastly differs for the rain track than what it was at Cat. Im litterally a second a lap faster in the rain build than the cat build. I was running best hitting 1:35.8s with my catalunya tune.

The 35.2 in Plat is good, I was only managing 35.4s when I realized that I remain Gold and not Plat.

That doesn't seem fair considering Don is a competitor. I know he's fast. Way faster than me due to years in the game, however, that's giving him another advantage. Why can't that information be shared?

I tried every car on all three tracks in Platinum, Silver, and Bronze builds. For me, it was which car was I most consistent in on all three tracks without having to put in long hours. If could have had access to information about which car performed well at each track I could have saved time on car selection and spent more time on practicing.

You bring up some interesting angles Code.  Let me share with everyone a couple of things.  We, as eries has said, are completely open to anyone and everyone who wants to help test.  It's an open door policy that we encourage every season or pre-season and yet, few take us up on it.  If they do, it's always short lived and sporadic at best.  That's okay, even a little testing can help.  This means that everyone can be both a tester and a competitor like me if they want to be.

The reality is that testing cars is the second hardest thing we do here at the IFCA.  We're talking long thankless hours of untold laps, and this isn't for everyone.  You really have to like testing to be able to do a good job with it and not everyone who says they want to test really means it.

I can assure you that my testing time benefits me way more than my opinion when it comes to maximizing the performance of each car.  In other words, just knowing what the cars are and having an idea of which cars might be faster, is not superior to the hundreds of testing laps I do.  Which is to say, my inequality with other competitors stems from just doing more laps than they do and not from my knowledge base.

One of the things that I've prided the IFCA on vs other leagues is getting the tested cars out to the drivers as quickly as possible.  For those of you who haven't raced in other leagues as I have, usually the cars are kept a total secret for weeks at a time all the way up until the very week of the race. To me this is unfair.  You have a handful of guys testing and tuning for weeks on end, and the regular competitors only get a few days before the race.  And guess who the drivers are that dominate the series?  That's right, the testers.  Well, I wanted to avoid this or limit the impact by at least sharing what the cars were and then giving the drivers almost as much time to sample the cars as we had time to test them.  And that's what we do here.  The draw back to this is that sometimes we miss the mark with a certain car because we never test with deep tuning.  We try to be reasonably fair with each car using a competent base tune.  And this works most of the time, but it is a trade off.  The solution to this problem is to develop a set roster of cars over time.

As for the stats that you seek, it's hard to know what stats might be of benefit for a variety of reasons.  Not all stats are equal for one.  Forza 7 is not so accurate that stats alone will clue you in on a car.  If this were true we wouldn't have to test any cars, we could just go by the P.I. for example.  A related issue to this is driver skill level.  Some drivers will drive some cars better than others or some worse, but below a certain level a driver will be unable to realize a better lap time no matter what car he drives.  So while you might be happy to know you are in what everyone says is the "best" car, the truth is you are no faster than if you were in the "worst" car.

The last issue is something that eries has also mentioned and that is, we aren't your personal testers.  The theme of this series is Mastery, it's called the Forza Masters Challenge for a reason i.e., to test your overall mastery of Forza 7 from hot lapping, tuning, to racing.  We aren't really trying to do your work for you, or your hot lapping, or your racing. We like to help, and we share everything we have, but more than this, starts to defeat the theme of the series.  We want you to show US what you know.  And maybe what you know is better than what we know.  The point is, if you aren't self motivated enough to put in your own effort, than why should we supply you with all of our hard work so you can short cut your way onto the podium?  I mean, this is still a competitive series fundamentally understand.

But do let me know what stats you think will be key to your success and maybe I can provide them for next season.

Thanks,
GTDon

To be clear, I completely respect and appreciate all the time and effort into testing the cars. I know the opportunity to test is there for all, and I wish I had the time to help more often. Plus, I'm not sure my contribution to testing would help much until I'm faster and more consistent.

Don and Eries deserve a reward for all that work, and honestly, I think the cars this season are pretty close. Maybe a bit less HP for the vettes, a bit more HP for the Mercedes and I think it would have been even closer.

Regarding stats, I wonder if sharing the lap times you guys run would help us?

WritesCode4Food wrote:To be clear, I completely respect and appreciate all the time and effort into testing the cars. I know the opportunity to test is there for all, and I wish I had the time to help more often. Plus, I'm not sure my contribution to testing would help much until I'm faster and more consistent.

Don and Eries deserve a reward for all that work, and honestly, I think the cars this season are pretty close. Maybe a bit less HP for the vettes, a bit more HP for the Mercedes and I think it would have been even closer.

Regarding stats, I wonder if sharing the lap times you guys run would help us?

Oh, well, lap times were not a secret.  Anyone could or can stop in to see what they are as we are doing them.  Typically we test all the cars to average between 0.1 to 0.2 tenths of a difference per lap.  For example at Catalunya National all of the Group 12a cars were tested to run 1:15.5s which turned out to be slightly faster than the average lap time of the actual race.  The fastest race lap was a 1:14.925.  So, with a lot of specified tuning with a top driver (ChevyPower) he managed to drop 0.6sec off our best tested times.  But we expect this.  We expect that a good driver is going to be able to improve whatever test times we have.  On the flip side, as many as 14 drivers could not hit our tested times.  So this begs the question how knowing what the tested times were, would have benefitted you since no matter what you could not hit the tested times in any of the cars.

My thought was that you wanted to know the performance values or the  performance stats of each car so that you could make a quick decision based on these things instead of driving the cars.  If all you want is the lap times, I don't see how that will help you since we (eries and I) run all the cars to within 0.1sec of each other at a pace you can't match anyway.   It wouldn't actually matter which car you picked at that point. Seems to make more sense to do it the way I'm suggesting (if you want to do it that way) to gather up all the performance stats, and ignore the lap times since they are all the same.  I say this because maybe you prefer a top speed car, or a car with better braking, or accelerating, or handling, and the stats can point you in those directions.

what race configuration should i use for sonoma training??
as I noticed a difference in time and consequently in grip in the training lobby of rivals GTDon2 (noon) and FM7 (sunset)

87Gui wrote:what race configuration should i use for sonoma training??
as I noticed a difference in time and consequently in grip in the training lobby of rivals GTDon2 (noon) and FM7 (sunset)

Sorry you missed the race G.  You will remain as you were for the next race  1982.654 Bronze @ Sonoma short.  There are no race restrictions for the race venue at this race, because it is a dry track race.

GTDon2 wrote:

WritesCode4Food wrote:To be clear, I completely respect and appreciate all the time and effort into testing the cars. I know the opportunity to test is there for all, and I wish I had the time to help more often. Plus, I'm not sure my contribution to testing would help much until I'm faster and more consistent.

Don and Eries deserve a reward for all that work, and honestly, I think the cars this season are pretty close. Maybe a bit less HP for the vettes, a bit more HP for the Mercedes and I think it would have been even closer.

Regarding stats, I wonder if sharing the lap times you guys run would help us?

Oh, well, lap times were not a secret.  Anyone could or can stop in to see what they are as we are doing them.  Typically we test all the cars to average between 0.1 to 0.2 tenths of a difference per lap.  For example at Catalunya National all of the Group 12a cars were tested to run 1:15.5s which turned out to be slightly faster than the average lap time of the actual race.  The fastest race lap was a 1:14.925.  So, with a lot of specified tuning with a top driver (ChevyPower) he managed to drop 0.6sec off our best tested times.  But we expect this.  We expect that a good driver is going to be able to improve whatever test times we have.  On the flip side, as many as 14 drivers could not hit our tested times.  So this begs the question how knowing what the tested times were, would have benefitted you since no matter what you could not hit the tested times in any of the cars.

My thought was that you wanted to know the performance values or the  performance stats of each car so that you could make a quick decision based on these things instead of driving the cars.  If all you want is the lap times, I don't see how that will help you since we (eries and I) run all the cars to within 0.1sec of each other at a pace you can't match anyway.   It wouldn't actually matter which car you picked at that point. Seems to make more sense to do it the way I'm suggesting (if you want to do it that way) to gather up all the performance stats, and ignore the lap times since they are all the same.  I say this because maybe you prefer a top speed car, or a car with better braking, or accelerating, or handling, and the stats can point you in those directions.

I definitely don't want to add any more time to what you already put in. If you have any ideas about how to share knowledge from car preparation pre-season I'm all ears. I do seem to be running more consistent lap times so will try to help more pre-season.

The idea of knowing which cars have more top end, et cetera as you suggest would be great if it doesn't take more of your time which I do value.

As we are almost halfway through the penultimate FM7 season, I have to just say:

When I finally decided to join back up, download and play FM again, I never thought that racing and meeting up, would kick off as if I never left.

I was away for long, End FM4 until mid Forza 7. That was 2010 roughly to 2019/2020.

For each and all thanks and awesome job at keeping at it, great stuff.

People came and went and the occasional clown, but all in all, makes me excited for FM8.

Special thanks to my partner in crime, da-D man! I dont think people really understand how much time you put in. Appreciate, and gold star sticker smack bang in the middle of your forehead.

Cheers all, here is to an awesome finish for S17 and then S18, the final one.

ZAR Eries wrote:As we are almost halfway through the penultimate FM7 season, I have to just say:

When I finally decided to join back up, download and play FM again, I never thought that racing and meeting up, would kick off as if I never left.

I was away for long, End FM4 until mid Forza 7. That was 2010 roughly to 2019/2020.

For each and all thanks and awesome job at keeping at it, great stuff.

People came and went and the occasional clown, but all in all, makes me excited for FM8.

Special thanks to my partner in crime, da-D man! I dont think people really understand how much time you put in. Appreciate, and gold star sticker smack bang in the middle of your forehead.

Cheers all, here is to an awesome finish for S17 and then S18, the final one.

Thanks eries!  I might as well elaborate on a couple of things while we are here.  Everyone should be made aware that contrary to popular opinion, eries and I don't always see eye to eye on what happens at the IFCA.  In one sense you can easily say, "who does (agree) on everything?"  And though this is true, that in general, no one is going to always agree with someone else on anything, eries and I go round and round on all things IFCA each week practically.  I say this not to insinuate we have strife, but to illuminate the fact that as the custodian and "Benevolent Dictator" of the IFCA, it is incumbent upon me to listen to and contend with any member and their ideas whether I agree with them or not.  As a custodian of the IFCA, my job isn't to shun debate or ignore the critics, it is to maintain the IFCA in accordance with its mission statement.  Doing so allows me to have an honest and open dialogue with every member because my agenda is not one of personal gain, but rather, is for the benefit of the IFCA.

You could well say that this is a fine line with hardly a distinction, and I would agree.  But there is a distinguishing difference coming from me, and that is, I'm a Founder.  I've been here continuously since the beginning of the IFCA going on 18 years now.  It's hard to imagine that some of you weren't even born when the IFCA started!

It is for this reason that eries and I can have robust and furious debates from time to time.  He also is a Founder.  No, he hasn't always been here due to the intrusions of real life, but this is no excuse not to honor his presence now or disrespect his input.

Over the years the IFCA has gone from an original Forza club hub of sorts, to a massive mega Forza league, to an abandoned sim-racing ghost town, to a resurrected boutique designer league as it currently is today. The IFCA acronym if you have ever wondered, stands for "International Forza Club Association."  It was created to be a place where every club in Forza could congregate and sustain itself through user solidarity.  And with this, the ability to amplify the voice of the Forza sim-racer.  This proved to be successful to varying degrees garnering even the attention of T10 briefly.  

For a short time we had a massive influence on the direction of Forza in terms of game play.  Our system for organized racing was used as a loose template for the league system in FM2 for example.  But something happened along the way that sent T10 in the opposite direction to that of sim-racing.  They wanted a more all-encompassing "car culture" game rather than a competitive racing simulation.  More attention was then paid to everyone and everything else outside of simulation racing features such as racing strategy, controlled pit stops, pace cars, ratings, clubs, host controlled lobbies, car physics, correct car sounds, exact track maps, and the list goes on.  

Instead we got things no one was really asking for like drifting, better painting, inflexible storefront and auction house, drag racing that doesn't actually function, apparel, uncontrolled automated lobby buckets, A.I. "drivatars", 3rd party faux championships implemented by shooter organizations, silly cars that are not used in motorsports, arbitrary and artificial track limits, a grinders paradise of worthless career modes, the same old glitches in each new version of the game etc, etc, etc.  

T10's direction away from motorsports racing achievement and individual competitiveness, and towards a homogenous one size fits all "everyone gets a trophy" philosophy, has inevitably brought them to the dead end road they now face.  This is why they are at this crossroad that leads to nowhere, it is of their own making. This is why they have vowed to "return to their roots" as they said.  Why?  Because they have no where else to go.  They exhausted the direction they took because it was the wrong direction.  Had they taken the right track towards motorsports (ironically a word that is in their new title) in the first place, they would have discovered it to be inexhaustible.

Someone at T10 has discovered they missed the boat a long time ago.  And I don't think it was Dan Greenawalt.  Someone figured out that what Forza is missing, is motorsports, i.e., simulation motorsports.  If this is true, then we could be in for the biggest change-over in the franchise's history.  If this happens and they steer closer to an iRacing type mentality, then there will be no need to do what we do here at the IFCA.  FM8 will be doing everything we do.  Our only reason to exist at that point would be as a racers forum or news coverage.

The chances are not 100% that this will happen, but the chances that Forza turns back towards the right direction is 100%.  It's just a matter of how far away from their destination will they be once they arrive.  If it is too far and they don't come close to where they need to be, it will be a signal that its time to move on.

GTDon2 wrote:

ZAR Eries wrote:As we are almost halfway through the penultimate FM7 season, I have to just say:

When I finally decided to join back up, download and play FM again, I never thought that racing and meeting up, would kick off as if I never left.

I was away for long, End FM4 until mid Forza 7. That was 2010 roughly to 2019/2020.

For each and all thanks and awesome job at keeping at it, great stuff.

People came and went and the occasional clown, but all in all, makes me excited for FM8.

Special thanks to my partner in crime, da-D man! I dont think people really understand how much time you put in. Appreciate, and gold star sticker smack bang in the middle of your forehead.

Cheers all, here is to an awesome finish for S17 and then S18, the final one.

Thanks eries!  I might as well elaborate on a couple of things while we are here.  Everyone should be made aware that contrary to popular opinion, eries and I don't always see eye to eye on what happens at the IFCA.  In one sense you can easily say, "who does (agree) on everything?"  And though this is true, that in general, no one is going to always agree with someone else on anything, eries and I go round and round on all things IFCA each week practically.  I say this not to insinuate we have strife, but to illuminate the fact that as the custodian and "Benevolent Dictator" of the IFCA, it is incumbent upon me to listen to and contend with any member and their ideas whether I agree with them or not.  As a custodian of the IFCA, my job isn't to shun debate or ignore the critics, it is to maintain the IFCA in accordance with its mission statement.  Doing so allows me to have an honest and open dialogue with every member because my agenda is not one of personal gain, but rather, is for the benefit of the IFCA.

You could well say that this is a fine line with hardly a distinction, and I would agree.  But there is a distinguishing difference coming from me, and that is, I'm a Founder.  I've been here continuously since the beginning of the IFCA going on 18 years now.  It's hard to imagine that some of you weren't even born when the IFCA started!

It is for this reason that eries and I can have robust and furious debates from time to time.  He also is a Founder.  No, he hasn't always been here due to the intrusions of real life, but this is no excuse not to honor his presence now or disrespect his input.

Over the years the IFCA has gone from an original Forza club hub of sorts, to a massive mega Forza league, to an abandoned sim-racing ghost town, to a resurrected boutique designer league as it currently is today. The IFCA acronym if you have ever wondered, stands for "International Forza Club Association."  It was created to be a place where every club in Forza could congregate and sustain itself through user solidarity.  And with this, the ability to amplify the voice of the Forza sim-racer.  This proved to be successful to varying degrees garnering even the attention of T10 briefly.  

For a short time we had a massive influence on the direction of Forza in terms of game play.  Our system for organized racing was used as a loose template for the league system in FM2 for example.  But something happened along the way that sent T10 in the opposite direction to that of sim-racing.  They wanted a more all-encompassing "car culture" game rather than a competitive racing simulation.  More attention was then paid to everyone and everything else outside of simulation racing features such as racing strategy, controlled pit stops, pace cars, ratings, clubs, host controlled lobbies, car physics, correct car sounds, exact track maps, and the list goes on.  

Instead we got things no one was really asking for like drifting, better painting, inflexible storefront and auction house, drag racing that doesn't actually function, apparel, uncontrolled automated lobby buckets, A.I. "drivatars", 3rd party faux championships implemented by shooter organizations, silly cars that are not used in motorsports, arbitrary and artificial track limits, a grinders paradise of worthless career modes, the same old glitches in each new version of the game etc, etc, etc.  

T10's direction away from motorsports racing achievement and individual competitiveness, and towards a homogenous one size fits all "everyone gets a trophy" philosophy, has inevitably brought them to the dead end road they now face.  This is why they are at this crossroad that leads to nowhere, it is of their own making. This is why they have vowed to "return to their roots" as they said.  Why?  Because they have no where else to go.  They exhausted the direction they took because it was the wrong direction.  Had they taken the right track towards motorsports (ironically a word that is in their new title) in the first place, they would have discovered it to be inexhaustible.

Someone at T10 has discovered they missed the boat a long time ago.  And I don't think it was Dan Greenawalt.  Someone figured out that what Forza is missing, is motorsports, i.e., simulation motorsports.  If this is true, then we could be in for the biggest change-over in the franchise's history.  If this happens and they steer closer to an iRacing type mentality, then there will be no need to do what we do here at the IFCA.  FM8 will be doing everything we do.  Our only reason to exist at that point would be as a racers forum or news coverage.

The chances are not 100% that this will happen, but the chances that Forza turns back towards the right direction is 100%.  It's just a matter of how far away from their destination will they be once they arrive.  If it is too far and they don't come close to where they need to be, it will be a signal that its time to move on.

Season 18 testing has begun!  If anyone would like to help out feel free to join in on one of our test lobby sessions. Just realize that we will be testing cars more than talking and that whatever conversation we might be having will be about the cars.  We take it seriously and want to spend our limited time doing the best job we can so that the IFCA patrons have the best racing they can have.

As for FM8, our hope is that T10 gets its act together finally and lives up to all the hype of the past, much of which was pure marketing and manipulation to be kind.  Our hope is that they have seen the error of their ways and realize that they should have been, not the most hardcore racing sim, but rather,  the best racing sim that captures the essence of motorsports.  And what exactly is this fleeting target, "the essence of motorsports?" It is that thing that drives drivers to achieve greatness, and captures the fan's imagination of what greatness is at the same time.  

So is this something to do with adding a new line of racing suits and helmets, or wheels and paint jobs?  Is it to do with new A.I. algorithms, drivatars, and the Cloud? Is it something to do with creating artificial equality so that everyone is the same, so there are no losers, or winners for that matter?  Is it rewarding everyone equally with faux trophies just for participating?  

Ask any real professional racer this same question and he won't have a clue what you are blathering about.  So no, none of the above is recognized as the "essence of motorsports." So what is it exactly?  Essentially, it is something that has nearly disappeared in many sports and cultures over the past 30 years.  In a word, 'competition' and all that it means.  

It means winners and losers based on performance. Motorsports competition doesn't care what color you are, what gender you are, or who you say goodnight to.  It is the divining rod that dowses the difference between success and failure, winning and losing.  It is the inarguable fact that you can not have one without the other.  This 'essence of motorsport' has been sorely missing from Forza since FM1.

T10 took the game into the non-competitive direction for fear that to do otherwise would alienate consumers/users, and sales would consequently diminish.  It was the safest bet or way for them to go.  It wasn't the only way, just the safest.  But because their vision was limited to revenue impact, along with the pressure of popular culture to avoid binary choices like winners and losers, T10 could not have a global vision involving pure competition.  They could not build a sim-racing empire.  They could not support 'winning excellence' if it meant others would lose.  It also meant that the game itself could not be developed to compete against their rivals like Gran Turismo.  Their excuse for this you ask?  "We are not a hardcore simulation racing game, and we don't want to be."  "We don't believe that we compete with anyone in this market segment, nor do we have to."

Competition is a funny thing though, it's like war, you can say you are not at war with someone, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still firing bullets and missiles at you.  So whether you think you are in competition or not doesn't matter to your rivals who are happy to exploit your every weakness.  Smarter is to just accept the truth, that if you really want to be the best, you will have to compete with others.  Hard to do and a fatal flaw if you don't believe in competing.

T10 and indeed America needs to be reminded that there is no thrill of victory, if there is no risk of agonizing defeat. Let's hope they get this right this time.  Let's hope that they return to the pursuit of being the world's best racing simulation, and that they broaden their motorsports vision to include real-world racing organizations as their model, dollars be damned. 

I'm once again looking into some sort of team feature to add to what we do.  Although we've done a variety of team formats, the measured success resulting from these efforts has not been conclusively definitive in many ways.  That is, yes, they have had moments of fun but haven't really been easy to organize.  

The problem is with the level of commitment drivers are able to give towards a team.  As a single driver it's not too hard to commit to a season of racing, but the moment you form a team that problem becomes exponentially harder with each additional new teammate.  And if points or performance rest on each teammate to race each week, your chances of team success become vanishingly small.

So what is a good solution to this difficult problem?  Some might say don't bother doing it at all, that's your solution! lol  True, this would eliminate the problem, but also the opportunity.  You see, motorsports is more of a team effort than we get to experience in Forza.  In fact, without team support, it can be argued that there would be no motorsports at all.  

As fans we don't always recognize just how much team spirit and support happens in order to produce a world champion effort.  Sure, the driver gets all the credit, but I can name no modern racing genre where the driver does it all.  Where he is the engineer, mechanic, manufacturer, sponsor, pit crew, test driver, tire guy, painter, marketer, promoter, physical trainer, dietician, and you get the picture.  Not since the days of perhaps Carol Shelby and Dan Gurney has this been the case.  No, today's champions in every motorsport have a team of people surrounding 1 or more drivers for a particular series.  Without this ensemble or cast of characters, even the best driver has no hope of winning anything because everyone else will also have a team of supporting experts.

No, I'm not suggesting we can fully emulate a professional racing team, hardly, what I'm suggesting is maybe creating a team environment instead.  Meaning, yes there will be some sort of team points, but more importantly that we promote team spirit without impacting individual achievement negatively.  

The problem with teams at our level is, in a word, organization.  You can not place too much responsibility on one or two guys to hold the team together for example.  If the team requirements or rules are too demanding, this too will impact everything negatively. So we need a team format that runs almost on autopilot and independently of the team members to a degree.  At the same time you can't be too detached to a team and still call it a team effort.  There is some sort of happy compromise I'm sure.

My suggestion is to allow teams to form on their own with some restrictions in place.  Such as a limit of 3 drivers, and/or official team livery requirements for example.  And then to create a team points incentive program where team members can equally contribute to the success of the team, rather than just one fast guy doing all the work.

This is just early stage thinking on my part, so if you have any ideas or suggestions you want to throw in, let us know.



GTDon

I love the sentiment. The challenge is incentivization. Desired behavior generally will only occur when the reward is worth it.

WritesCode4Food wrote:I love the sentiment. The challenge is incentivization. Desired behavior generally will only occur when the reward is worth it.

As already stated over in the "IFCA Series News" thread, I am looking into the possibilities.  I think I have found a path forward for this idea.  It has to do with incentives of course.  

The incentives have to be somewhat autonomous as they are applied to a team/club.  In sort of a quid pro quo way, you do this for the team and you get that for your drivers so that a team is more than just a name.  

A team is comprised of drivers who wish to compete in cooperation as a team that in turn benefits all the members of that team.  Manage or coach your team to reach certain goals where incentives can be earned, and not only does the team benefit in terms of team points, but we then connect that success to the individual drivers by rewarding them with individual bonus points for their full throttled effort too.

In this way individual team members can help their team knowing that it will also help themselves.  And this is how we get everyone on a team to have some skin in the game.  To make being in a team more meaningful, and be more advantageous than driving alone both in terms of points and support.

If implemented, everyone should desire to be on a team.  You will want to be on a team fast or not because more bonus points will be available to you than if you were a lone driver.

I think in this way we would experience greater levels of competition for all skill levels, and create that cohesive bond that motivates people to want to work together for a common cause.