Racing Discussions

Please use this thread for all discussions regarding current series races, incidents and general chat.

Well, that is why I think you should use simulation damage. It creates accountability for aggressive driving. It will suck for a few races, however, long term it forces people to drive clean, to not abuse their tires and transmissions. Dive bombing won't work as well because of the risk of suspension damage.

WritesCode4Food wrote:Well, that is why I think you should use simulation damage. It creates accountability for aggressive driving. It will suck for a few races, however, long term it forces people to drive clean, to not abuse their tires and transmissions. Dive bombing won't work as well because of the risk of suspension damage.

lol, I was waiting for this.  You see, it's not like we haven't gone down that road before. This isn't our first carnival ride you know. lol 

The concept for full sim use looks good on paper, but that's without the context and practical application.  Once applied, the full sim option becomes a poor fit for a couple of significant reasons.  Primarily it diminishes the fun of what we do here.  We are not professional racers, we are recreational racers.  By making things more punitive and punishing you are by default removing the reason why you are a recreational racer and stepping towards a more serious and punishing format.  

The second and equally important reason is the negative feelings and rage that happens when after practicing all week, your race (and season) ends in the very first race on the opening lap in turn 1 because someone bumped into you.  This again goes against the primary focus of just having fun.  The percentage of rage quits practically doubles and return racers who were violated never return, with sim damage on.  So it's an all around negative for the level of racing we do here.

If we were a serious sim-only league we would do all the things we could to make it as serious as a professional league.  You would be forced to use cockpit view, no assists, no brake line, no mic, and full sim damage.  Doing so for a group of guys who want the most realism possible is one thing, but forcing this on guys who are not interested in that kind of sim-racing will cost you at least half of your driver roster.  

Bottom line is, people just want to have fun racing, more than anything.  They don't want things to be too hard, too punishing, too frustrating, too demanding, or too serious.  They want to race the way they want, which is the most comfortable way for them. 

In away, they want exactly what the SVRA offers, which is hard respectful racing, because at their level it's not as serious as the pro-driver level of say an IMSA Trans Am race, or NASCAR, or IRL, or certainly not F1 races.  Our real life SVRA counterparts are enjoying their cars for what they are and the fun of friendly competition.  They are not out to win at all costs.  They have no factory backing or major sponsors or massive prize money.  And the IFCA is much the same, which dictates we should not try to be something we are not, either. No, we should stay in our own lane, and work on doing what we do, well.

My original post wasn't suggesting we have a problem.  To the contrary, it was suggesting that we are doing well but that there is a higher standard to shoot for as exemplified in the SVRA video.  The intent of the post is to help everyone keep the proper focus and their eyes on the prize as it were.  The SVRA racers do an amazing job at giving racing room and knowing when to back off, and yet being at the limit of the cars performance envelope all the while.  And this is what we need to emulate more of.

As for the notion that full sim damage will thwart bad driving, I haven't seen this to be the actual case.  Some people perceive it may do this, but honestly I've been kicked around and beaten on way more times in full sim leagues than here at the IFCA.  So I think it's an unsubstantiated claim that just sounds like it would make sense.  The reality is this, a wrecker or a driver who likes to take chances does so without regard for whether sim damage is on or not.  In the same way, the majority of good drivers prefer to maintain a reputation as a clean driver no matter the format.  This tells me that there is little to no correlation between the lobby settings and the behavior.  If so, then it would be more fruitful to emphasis those behaviors that promote good fun driving instead of trying to rely on lobby settings to do the job for you.

Sim damage is not built for controller or even wheel users, specifically talking about clutch use. As long as the clutch is activated by a button which has to be pressed, held while gear up/down is pressed and then released, it will always be a big no from me.

The only way to avoid damage to the gearbox is to run manual no clutch, which is slower. Same as forcing and assist on me will cause me to simply not partake.

This is my game, I run the car the way I want to. I put my own tune on it, I run whatever assist I want.

Now if Forza actually had the savvy to dev correctly they would put a trigger and timing into this. Gearbox damage registered when the gear up/down is pressed 0.1s after the gear button is pressed. This way someone miss hitting slightly is covered. On a controller you set the clutch to A and gears either side, and then hit both buttons as the same time. This is the only way. How the hell to you with one hand hit clutch, then gear while holding clutch. Then releasing clutch, it is not possible. Well it is but then you might as well not race at all.

The wheel guys only if they have a clutch pedal, can overcome this, but I dont know a single wheel user using the clutch this way, they all do it via button presses. Slightly easier for them, pressing clutch, flicking paddle shift and releasing clutch, although it is still just stupid.

The 360 compatible wheels had firmware where you could map the two buttons to one. Iow the clutch button was mapped to both paddle up and down, meaning you pull the shift up and it registers clutch and gear change. Dont know if you can do that now.

Yeah I know, T10 wants us all to call it "Forza Motorsports" but we know it's really FM8.  Well boys, it looks like we get our wish, so far.  Take a look...

So coming March 2023.

Oh and thats no game play demo, it is a marketing vid.

ZAR Eries wrote:So coming March 2023.

Oh and thats no game play demo, it is a marketing vid.

Maple Valley is a fan favorite? It's a fake track isn't it? Why would people love a fake track?

Back in FM1/2 the IFCA was formed as a way to organize all Forza drivers into a competitive league with regulatory rules and preferred formats.  The idea was to form an organization not unlike the FIA or IMSA and give drivers a better experience that more closely resembled actual racing which would have more meaning.  This didn't mean we were interested in 100% strict sim-settings, it meant we wanted a more responsible and controlled racing environment to counter the no holds barred random public racing lobbies from which we all came from.

At first we tried many variations of simulation formats to see what was the most fun and the least penalizing to a wide range of drivers.  We quickly learned that idealism is the death of any league or series, and that if you were too dogmatic and idealistic, you ended up kicking the fun right off the track.  

As with any directional change there are always going to be protesters and decenters, these are the people who would eventually split off from the iFCA to create their own league the way they wanted it to be.  In total there were perhaps as many as a dozen or so spinoff leagues and another couple dozen who spun off from them.  Most have long since dissolved for a variety of reasons such as the way Forza continued to change in the wrong direction with each new version.  The result was way too many leagues emerging with too few members in each league, and fragmenting the racing community. Rather than one or two massive leagues, there were untold numbers of tiny leagues.  

Without any sort of agreement or unification of rules and format, the leagues were destined to die a slow death.  Many attempts were made to reach out and standardize league rules and formats under one umbrella but every attempt was thwarted by the leaders of each league who stood fast claiming their league was the "best and only league."  They didn't see a need to homologate or cooperate even if it meant having a much larger contingent of drivers resulting in National level competitions leading to a true Forza world championship.  Only the IFCA and a couple others had the vision that things could be built up to a much higher level giving greater meaning to everyone who raced Forza.  Sadly, the resistance was just too great.  The majority of league leaders continued to think their little league was "the one" league to race at.  They could not see a bigger picture and with the game changing away from more serious racing every other year, it became impossible to gain any agreement with any league on anything.  Every league thought that they would eventually be the one league to go to and it was this league competitiveness that ended up killing almost everyone off.

During that time around the end of FM2 I was approached to help write the new user guide for FM3 by Prima Games and Microsoft.  They wanted a new kind of Forza guide, one that was more like a reference manual that people would continually refer to rather than read and then throw away.  They wanted someone who understood the game and had expert insights.  I told them no problem, many of the fastest drivers race at the IFCA, we can do interviews and get their best tips and tricks it will be amazing!  They liked what they heard and we set out to do just that.  3 months later we were done and Prima Games presented the finished product to T10 with great pride as they thought it to be the best guide they ever produced regardless of genre.  Turn 10?  Not so much.  In fact they hated it.  They hated all of it.  They were unwilling to allow us to use any of the tips and tricks or reference the gamer tags of the experts who gave the tips, people you would know, and told Prima Games to re-write it!  T10 demanded that everything be deleted, on the basis that they didn't want anyone to have a competitive advantage which might place some users at a disadvantage because they didn't buy the guide.  They said this was too exclusive and that Forza isn't just about racing.  Prima Games was shocked by this because T10 agreed to everything we proposed just 3 months earlier.  Needless to say, we were forced to redact virtually everything and  comply with T10's demand that the guide be no different than the very boring and useless FM2 guide.

What was also sad about this story was the missed opportunity to unify the leagues.  I was using this moment to incorporate and include people from outside the IFCA as a stepping stone to unification.  But when we were told in no uncertain terms to delete everyone from the manual and all their great tips, it pretty much ended that effort.

After FM3 came out which was the year after iRacing in 2009, I dabbled with iRacing for a time.  I noticed that they had a cool driver rating system for both road racing and oval racing.  It turned out that it was a well recognized Elo ratings system that objectively defined driver skill levels.  Still wanting some way to unify all Forza drivers in order to build regional, national, and international competitions, it occurred to me that uniformly rating drivers would have the requisite effect.  For the first time everyone in Forza would be able to objectively know who the fastest and slowest was, and everyone in between.   

So with some effort I created a driver ratings formula unique to Forza that would not have to take into account the car or track unless it was an oval track.  Naively thinking that the drivers of Forza would embrace the formula just as I assumed the iRacing drivers did, I proudly unveiled it to everyone and starting using it.  Unfortunately, without knowing where everyone's true skill was, the ratings needed time to become accurate, usually about 12 races.  So right away drivers were upset and cast doubt as to the accuracy of the ratings.  All the more so when 99% of them had no idea what an Elo rating even was.  So rather than the new ratings system being a unifier, it actually created more disunity amongst the racers!  All kinds of false claims of bias and inaccuracy against me, the IFCA, and the formula itself were thrown.  But slowly, after awhile, those that stuck around, started to see that the program really did work and enhanced the value of what we were doing with the hobby.  Sure, many more didn't appreciate the ratings formula and couldn't understand it, but much of this was born out of ignorance and jealousy that they didn't think of it first quite honestly.

Fast forward several years later and the IFCA has become somewhat of a quiet hamlet with just a few OG members, and everyone else scattered to the wind.  It's FM6, and enthusiasm has waned since the debacle of FM5 that everyone had such high hopes for.  Most of the smaller leagues have vanished, and a new kind of Forza user has emerged from a new generation of drivers.  These are drivers with no knowledge of how things were once better and think Forza 6 is great.  And it is great, it's just not what any of the racers ever asked for.  Instead of a more serious and dedicated simulator, T10 delivered that more of the same 'one size fits all do anything' casual racing game.  But there was a bigger problem and that was Forza Horizon, a totally arcade game that had mass appeal to the casual Forza user thus stripping what few Forza drivers there were down to an even smaller number.  Forza was losing its identity and intended purpose to its younger arcade sister.

With FM7 it was thought T10 would finally find its way back to simulation racing and away from its successful arcade sister, but it was not to be.  FM7 was just a new reboot of FM6 in many ways and would never live up to the hype it was given before launch.  

The IFCA had a view that since T10 wasn't going to be serious about Forza simulation racing there was no point in pursuing anything organizationally and universally competitive.  T10 didn't support such efforts anyway and favored certain league organizations over others.  But even with their own endorsed endeavors such as the FRC, T10 was not involved in promoting anything. They left any such events in the hands of third party interests who's experience was more to do with shooters' than racing.  (Sigh)

So here we are today, some 17 years after FM1 and further away from simulation racing than ever in the franchise's history.  The IFCA is still here but with a different mission statement conforming to the limitations of the current version of Forza 7.  

Basically the IFCA has created a game within the game in order to bend FM7 to our will, by hammering out a niche format and system that looks and feels more like SCCA club level racing.  A way to level the playing field, rank the drivers, offer a wide range of cars, and lightly enforce rules.  Rather than cut throat professional competition and winning at all costs, ours is more of a gentlemen's sport of friendly competition where you can ask for help or a tune and it is freely given.  Here, it is expected that you will give racing room so that you can get racing room, and not try to touch anyone.  The overall effect has been a more fun racing experience, where dirty driving is practically nonexistent.  This has allowed our ranks to grow at a time when less and less people are playing Forza.  It has also enabled our drivers to become faster and more competitive than they once were.

The hope for FM8 is that it will be a turn in the right direction for a change.  So far, what little we know of it sounds promising, but we've been fooled before.

The IFCA Benevolent Dictator
GTDon

You make me feel old, but truer words have not been spoken.

We have surely seen them come and go, from a T10 as well as IFCA perspective.

We all knew that from FM2 and the direction they took, it will be the death of the FM franchise in what FM1 delivered.

But the IFCA has stood fast. Even with my hiatus, I knew Ill be back one day and race side by side with respected drivers.

Was I fast, I had Top 1 times, am I fast now, no but one thing never chaged, respect for everyone that loves Forza. Not the racing, but the game, and what it really stands for. Not many know, but those that can see past a leaderboard, and see that comaderie is where it is at, will, like Tom, still play.

Whatever FM8 brings, I know the IFCA will be there, it always has.

Little did we know that when we got together in 2005 and started this thing, creating a website and organising events, we will still be here 17 years later, hell just think of it, 17 years!

Does Don always do things 100% to everyones liking, hell no, but he doesnt need to cause he has a love for this more than what anyone but maybe me will ever know.

So next time, especially when things dont go your way, always remember he does it for the bigger picture, he needs this as we need him.

An honest friend, which is why next season, will be a first ... Watch this space

ZAR Eries wrote:You make me feel old, but truer words have not been spoken.

We have surely seen them come and go, from a T10 as well as IFCA perspective.

We all knew that from FM2 and the direction they took, it will be the death of the FM franchise in what FM1 delivered.

But the IFCA has stood fast. Even with my hiatus, I knew Ill be back one day and race side by side with respected drivers.

Was I fast, I had Top 1 times, am I fast now, no but one thing never chaged, respect for everyone that loves Forza. Not the racing, but the game, and what it really stands for. Not many know, but those that can see past a leaderboard, and see that comaderie is where it is at, will, like Tom, still play.

Whatever FM8 brings, I know the IFCA will be there, it always has.

Little did we know that when we got together in 2005 and started this thing, creating a website and organising events, we will still be here 17 years later, hell just think of it, 17 years!

Does Don always do things 100% to everyones liking, hell no, but he doesnt need to cause he has a love for this more than what anyone but maybe me will ever know.

So next time, especially when things dont go your way, always remember he does it for the bigger picture, he needs this as we need him.

An honest friend, which is why next season, will be a first ... Watch this space

Thanks old friend.  It's true, this hobby is as much about the people you meet as it is about the racing if not more.  Something about racing that makes it entirely different than other games on a social level.  

It's taken a long time to get our current set of drivers to accept this fact, but it's really paying off with more considerate driving and sportsmanship, and greater driving competence too!  Everyone has gotten so much faster lately.  And not just faster but cleaner too. It's great to see new faces in the top 8 with a wide mix of cars and talent.  

I have to say, it's really starting to feel more like real racing, mainly because of the attitude everyone has embraced.  Everyone understands the tone here at the IFCA and abides by it not because of the threat of penalty but because they all want to.  They all want good clean racing because they know that this is where the fun begins.  It begins with a natural sense of fair play, maintaining a good reputation, patience, honor, and trusting that everyone else feels the same way even when there are mishaps.  As a result of this mutual agreement on how to race, we have far fewer arguments and protests, and, well, rage quits, than any league, club, or series I've been in.  And the credit goes to you guys, the drivers of the IFCA.  You decided to make it this way.

Hi gents, based on the practice lap leaderboard you can tell everyone has ramped it up lately.  Take me for example.  I've been trying everything I can to break 1:19.000, all week!  It wasn't until today that I ran a, you guessed it, a 1:19.000, exactly!!  With 2hrs to go before the Friday cut off at 6pm CST, I said, "I can't let that stand."  So I blazed straight through 2 more full tanks of gas and finally ran a 1:18.866. (Sorry D1mien, paddy, Whiskey)  Not bad right? lol It was only good enough to claim 8th fastest!  Worse still was, I was in a 5 way tie representing 3 different makes of car.  All of the drivers in this tie are Silver rated too.

But, this is what it takes when things are this close.  Just a few 100ths of a second means the difference between 5th and 9th.  As the cars become closer in performance track selection has as much importance with car dominance as anything.  During testing the Ferrari 430 proved the fastest of all the cars tested here at Suzuka West, and what you know, a 430 has the track lap record. Three of them occupy the top 6 practice lap times ever ran too.

It's difficult if not impossible to definitively tell which car is best suited for a specific set of tracks before each season begins.  And after each season, it just becomes that much harder as we adjust them.  

As compared to our real life SVRA counterpart, we race with much tighter tolerances in terms of lap times and are far closer together than they are, track to track.  In real racing the track is a much bigger factor than in sim-racing it turns out.  With our cars you can race to to within 1sec of the same cars and drivers every week at different tracks, but in real racing this is not so.  In real racing a different track will completely shuffle the pecking order of the same cars.  And not by a small amount.  Cars can swing over 5sec per lap depending on the tracks used.  And still we are shooting for even more parity here at the IFCA.

Also improving is the average skill of the IFCA driver.  No, I don't think you can blame the car build level exactly, guys are just getting not just faster but less reckless too.  The Relay format next season is going to be really fun for those who haven't done it before.  Especially so with the improved cars and drivers.  

It's going to be really tight racing on a whole different level than we've done in over a year now. Mics are only used between teammates if you didn't know. 

So go big or go home! 

And Good luck. lol

Just wanted to share some insights and comparisons about iRacing vs Forza.  Recently I reactivated my old iRacing account to see how things have changed since about 2015.  It turns out I need a better graphics card even though my computer is pretty fast.  It runs iRacing but just barely at 35 FPS. Running at 80 FPS with full everything on, and iRacing looks as good or better than any racing simulator, period.

The weight of the cars is substantially heavier than Forza cars and the inertia is too.  The cars behave more like a real car where the tires can be easily overwhelmed with too much input.  Sliding the cars is more realistic too.  Not easier mind you, but more like a real car where it slides off gently and then starts to slowly go away leading to a sudden snap hook where you loop the car 360 degrees around!  You think you are saving it, and then bam! it loops on you!  You know, like a real car lol.

The engine sounds are the best in the business bar none too.  I forgot how much true engine sounds add to the experience.  I only went to Bristol and Daytona 24hr but both tracks were amazingly smooth where they should be and realistically bumpy where you'd expect too, like through the bus stop.  There is no time penalty for blazing through corners either, but they can become violently bumpy if you go too far, and the grass/dirt will lose you time as well.

The crash modeling is far more advanced than Forza, where you can lose the entire front clip and maybe the engine too, I don't know.  The sim-damage is spot on as well.  Rough your car up, and it acts like it.  You can still drive it, but it will be tricky.

The handling of the cars is more forgiving than 7 years ago with all the updates they've done to their modeling.  You get the sense that you are driving a real car but unlike in the past, they aren't as ridiculously difficult to keep on the track. iRacing has struck a wonderful balance between what is real and what is fun.  Compared to Forza where it is mostly unreal with a nerfy feel.

Throttle response is spot on with no delay, but braking is about half as strong as a Forza car and is the hardest thing to adjust to. The instant throttle response is really fun and  gives you a sense that this is a real engine.

The user interface is a bit choppy and complicated looking but functional, and the tuning options are dizzying.  I'm still not sure that tuning in iRacing makes a bit of difference for the average driver.  Forza has their old and dated simpler tuning options list with less stuff to tune, but it seems to make a bigger impact.

Overall, iRacing reminded me of how far away Forza is from being the least bit serious.  The contrast is stark.  T10 has lost the finer things (as mentioned above) that doesn't just make simulation racing more "immersive" but are key elements that drag you down into the deep end kicking and screaming with delight in automotive euphoria.

Forza's big lure or advantage? The Xbox Live community more than the game.  Sort of a sad statement that the platform is more attractive than the game.

All I can say is that if T10 thinks they can turn out another boring carbon copy arcade version of FM6 come Spring, even XBox Live won't be enough for me to stay.  So I hope T10 has finally decided to put on their big boy pants and put away their big crayons or it's hello iRacing for me!

Uhmmm Don you said the same in FM3,4,5,6 and 7.

ZAR Eries wrote:Uhmmm Don you said the same in FM3,4,5,6 and 7.

More like FM4 time frame. I was gone mostly during FM4-5 doing iRacing. But not many had transitioned to iRacing at that time so i came back. This is no longer the case. A lot of guys have moved to iRacing today.

I believe FM8 will be an improvement the likes we havent seen yet. It wont be iRacing so dont expect that. The shear power a PC delivers will always trump a console. But the X and S series are such a step up from the 360 that we in essence should see at least 300% improvement. Now ... Lets hope that 300% doesnt all lie in making the cars and trees look pretty.

If the physics, feel and realism picks up by tripple over FM4 then it would be great. FM7 to me is abut a 1.5 time improvement at most on the controller, dont know on the wheel how much you would give it.

PS I for a reason didnt mention the ONE as it was just more about new gen graphics etc. We all know FM4 and FM7 is basically the same game on better hardware.

Looking for a jump, like what we saw between FM1 and FM4, that would be awesome.

ZAR Eries wrote:I believe FM8 will be an improvement the likes we havent seen yet. It wont be iRacing so dont expect that. The shear power a PC delivers will always trump a console. But the X and S series are such a step up from the 360 that we in essence should see at least 300% improvement. Now ... Lets hope that 300% doesnt all lie in making the cars and trees look pretty.

If the physics, feel and realism picks up by tripple over FM4 then it would be great. FM7 to me is abut a 1.5 time improvement at most on the controller, dont know on the wheel how much you would give it.

PS I for a reason didnt mention the ONE as it was just more about new gen graphics etc. We all know FM4 and FM7 is basically the same game on better hardware.

Looking for a jump, like what we saw between FM1 and FM4, that would be awesome.

I agree, I think Forza is poised to turn a new leaf for a change.  They do have a new team running the show even though Dan Greenawalt is still overseeing things.  

Basically, they have painted themselves into a corner no one wants to be in.  Forza Horizon has been a big hit as it appeals to a much wider audience of gamers who can be rightly referred to as casual gamers.  In effect Forza Horizon has filled a gap that Forza Motorsports never could even though it tried many times.  

So where exactly does this leave Forza Motorsports?  Two choices actually.  Continue to wash, rinse, and repeat, and produce another boring copy of the previous game that inspires no one, and fills no market vacancy, or, do the only thing Forza has never tried to do, i.e., become a serious racing simulation as it was originally inspired to do. 

Thanks to Forza Horizon the silly notion that Forza Motorsports needs to be the, "be all, and do all" game can be thrown away.  Instead of shunning the exhilarating thrill of competing as a race car driver, Forza can now fully and completely embrace the competitive spirit that makes racing what it is, the worlds most popular non-stick and ball sport.

Just wanted to tease what the future will bring come season 16.  Provided we go back to a single driver's championship, we will be addressing the issue of how to better equalize Group 6 vs Group 12a, with a different format.  The problem is actually with Forza because it doesn't have the fine granularity needed to produce equal but different cars as we see in real life.

In case you were unaware, our current format models itself (loosely) after the real SVRA races where two different groups of cars compete at the same time.  The SVRA does this quite easily with many more options at their disposal than we have in terms of weights and measures.  It enables historic cars to compete very fairly against their late model counterparts.  Unfortunately with Forza we've discovered this is only possible up to a certain point.  A point at which we can say is not nearly pointed enough.  Because Forza places a premium on weight and thus handling, our historic Group 6 cars are on average not as competitive as they should and could be.  On the other hand our modern Group 12a cars with their superior handling, are less vulnerable to the superior speed of the historic cars.  This inequality makes it too biased in favor of the modern cars on most tracks.

Now certainly we could completely restructure the car roster and slide all of the cars down into A-Class to help the historic cars handle better or something, but then the modern cars will handle better as well.  That is, it could help but isn't the best solution given Forza's limitations.  So, if we want to continue with the driver skill ratings format, and don't wish to do away with one group of cars over the other, then we have to think out of the box a little for a solution.  And, like I said, just trying to modify what we have been doing isn't likely the solution, and will probably prolong the problem anyway.

After some thought and suggestions, I'm happy to report a solution has been found.  It's one that almost everyone will like, and one in which we won't have to discard any cars for or ruin builds and ratings for.

I'm not going to say exactly what it is just yet, I'll leave it to everyone to speculate on for a couple weeks.  If you think you know the answer feel free to make your suggestion known.  If anyone but Eries guesses right I will disclose the details.

Lady's and Gents
I am thinking of buying a Vitus by HP 15L gaming desktop rather the new Xbox
Any thoughts or suggestions as I would only be playing Forza when gaming