Season 17 preview

Hi All,

I will soon drop the brand new addition mentioned by GTDon2.

To summarize very briefly:
Some always felt that there were no real benefit in moving up from Bronze to Platinum as it means putting yourself into a car that is made more challenging, well fear no more.

This new feature is aimed at looking at you, yes you that manages to jump into a new build, we see your performance and now will take this into account, so the higher your rating and performance the more you get out of it.

Does that mean you as a Bronze driver will be penalized? No
Does that mean that as a Silver driver you will be rewarded? Yes

This has taken me ages of brain work and many hours in discussion on where we we want to go in really achieving that balance of reward.

So what did we do?

We measure you as an individual against yourself as well as the group and start to allocate each racer with two sets of ratios each race.

These ratios are then used hand in hand with your rating value within the 4 groups (Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze) to produce an adjuster (value) to each racer in each race. No previous race adjuster is re-used, it is done weekly, fresh and new each time.

This adjuster will ultimately adjust your time you achieve in qualifying to produce an adjusted time.

This adjusted time formulates a grid order for the race.

More to follow soon, as well as a handy sequence diagram for those that are more inclined to understanding pictures, like me lol.

ZAR Eries wrote:

Outstanding flow chart Eries.  It's difficult to explain these things and the chart really helps order it in one's mind.  

For those who care and even those who maybe don't, the goal here is to do 5 things. 
1.) Extract maximum performance from each driver at all times so that laziness or sandbagging of any kind is to your detriment. 
2.) Offer incentives for doing well or above average. 
3.) Make it equal across the board for all skill levels. 
4.) Create a formula that both offers rewards but also doesn't penalize you should you under perform.  
5.) Doesn't skew or inflate the ratings so we maintain our ratings benchmark for all skill levels.

So basically (as Eries will explain later), a lot of thought went into this scheme to compliment the ratings and use the data collected.  These are not major or gigantic changes as it might appear.  No, these are fairly small influences and just big enough to have the intended effect.  

We didn't want to radically affect things but we did want to remove, or plug some of the perceived and actual holes when it came to the differences between someone always doing their utmost best and someone who isn't.  This system only benefits the drivers who put in the greatest effort and at the same time does not impose a penalty should they fall short.  

We've made it so that if you want a better grid position and you perform better than expected the rewards will be there for you.  If not, you won't lose points or positions exactly, but neither will you gain.  So, it's all up to you and how much you apply yourself.  You can take it easy and just drive around, or you can take it to a higher effort level and gain grid positions and points during a season.  It's all up to you.  And if everyone around you is stepping up their game to gain better grid positions and more points, and you don't step up, you will be imposing a disadvantage on yourself as a consequence. We are betting no one will want the short end of this stick. lol

That is along the lines of what I was proposing. I was spending so much time trying to convince you to make a change I never really got a chance to work through details, however, I'm just happy the change is being made

WritesCode4Food wrote:That is along the lines of what I was proposing. I was spending so much time trying to convince you to make a change I never really got a chance to work through details, however, I'm just happy the change is being made

Yes, you were sort of suggesting something like this I think?  I wouldn't call this a "change" exactly, but more of an enhancement or stop gap measure.  

Our focus here is with addressing the idea some people have that under performing has a benefit.  In a way they aren't wrong, at least on paper.  In actuality no one has succeeded by purposely sand bagging, to date.  However, we wanted to eliminate the notion entirely just the same. This system basically calls into question the intelligence of under performing by offering you more for your effort rather than less.  It means that rather than perhaps feeling comfortable as a Bronze level driver and fearful of becoming a Silver, there is extra compensation for moving up into Silver and Gold, and Platinum, without losing the value of your rating or feeling like there is no good reason to reach higher.

Eries will throw down a few notes for us about all this soon.

I will, today. It might get a tad technical but some like that.

Hi All,

As mentioned herewith a more in depth breakdown, without giving too much away as this has been hours of my time spent and don’t want anyone just to come grab and use as their own …

Don is 100% correct, the influences created are very slight but can have an impact, the impact itself is all up to each racer.

1. You spend the time on track in practice – You will see reward
2. You submit your fastest time for the leader board – You will see reward
3. You do you utmost best in Qualifying – You will see reward
4. You raise your rating as high as possible – You will see reward
5. You perform equal or above your expected – You will see reward

If you underperform you won’t lose anything, you will be where you will usually be, some that however do get these above rewards, might place in front of you, if they were close enough. So you need to just do your best within your means.

The incentives are small, stack up and are inversed calculated to eliminate any cheating or sand bagging, let me briefly explain:

1. You submit a slow Leader Board time, which you then beat by a large margin in Qualifying – And your Leader board ratio value is low, but Qualifying higher, which equals out and you gain nothing.
2. You submit a fast Leader board time and then fall way short in Qualifying – Your Qualifying ratio value is low, but Leader board high, which equals out and you gain nothing.
3. Both your Leader board and Qualifying is below what the group norm is and both your leader board and qualifying ratios are affected
4. Go above and beyond and put in a fast leader board time, backed up with a top qualifying against the group norm and both your ratios will also be affected but this time, having a greater effect on your start grid position

# 4 above is what all must aim for, doing the best you can. Yes by this not meaning top 3 only, everyone is equally influenced according to THEIR own performance as well as measured how they stack up with the group.

Now the finer detail without giving it all away.

A. Leader Board

• Individual
  
• Group Average
  

B. Rating

• Individual
  
• Group Average
  

C. Group
      Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze

D. Qualifying

• Individual
  
• Ratios
  

E. Grid position

• Qualifying time adjustment
  
• Grid Positions amended
  

These are all factors that have a hand in where you end up on the grid, so as you can see this is not just a thumb suck process, each of these above have values that change weekly.

Leader Board

You as an individual submit the fastest time you can achieve, and this against the group average will give you a ratio value (R1). The better you do the higher R1.

Rating

Each week after the race your rating is amended according to Dons, programme. Here again you as an individual are measured against the group and we get another ratio value (R2), the higher your rating, the higher this value.

Group

It always pays to rise in rank, so there are slight differences between the groups. Platinum is the measure, and each following stepping down slightly. The reason for this is to always aim to rise.

Qualifying

Your qualification now carries most of the weight but not all, it counts as a portion of your final result as whatever the TOOL delivers as a adage or subtraction, will be calculated onto your qualifying time. Here is where we could see someone jump another because the put in more effort in upping their ratio values.

Grid Position

Qualifying times as they come in, are put in the TOOL and whatever ratio values you had due to your leader board times, ratings, group etc, is calculated onto this. Your Qualifying adjusted time might increase or decrease. The changes here aren’t massive, but certainly does make a difference.

5s Roll off start to Qualifying – I will always start in 1st for Qualifying, this is to finish first “Hopefully”, lol so that I start capturing the qualifying times as they come in, into the TOOL. This immediately slots each the moment the last racer crosses the finish line, into a grid order. This is then given to Don who sets the grid.

In very simple terms, let us look at two scenarios:

Chevy is a gold driver and Eries is a Silver Driver:

A.

Performance Adjuster	Rating R	LB Time LBt	Qualy Time Qt	Qt (Adjusted) / Ratios *	Grid Position
G	1995.999	01:46.050	01:46.136	1:46.343	3
S	1979.999	01:46.050	01:46.100	1:46.357	4

Chevy and Eries managed the same Leaderboard time, but Eries managed a slightly faster qualy time than Chevy, this however is not enough and Chevy still takes 3rd with a 1:46.343 over Eries with 1:46.357.

B.

Performance Adjuster	Rating R	LB Time LBt	Qualy Time Qt	Qt (Adjusted) / Ratios *	Grid Position
G	1995.999	01:46.050	01:46.136	1:46.343	4
S	1979.999	01:46.050	01:46.050	1:46.308	3

Chevy and Eries managed the same Leaderboard time, but Eries managed to put in a qualy time almost 0.1s faster than Chevy in Qualifying. His new adjusted time of 1:46.308 is enough to trump Chevy and he takes 3rd on the Grid and Chevy 4th.

It is more of a challenge for a Gold Driver to match a Silver Drivers time, due to the car performance, and he due to his exceptional performance gets a slight boost. As you can see in one scenario Eries gets pole and in the other Chevy does, depending on the ratios as mentioned above.

There are 7 columns between Qualy time and Qt (Adjusted), where calculations are done across all areas mentioned in Points A to E, at the start of this post. There are also a total of 24 racers data, with top and bottom times being (for reference):

Performance Adjuster	Rating R	LB Time LBt	Qualy Time Qt	Qt (Adjusted) / Ratios *	Grid Position
P	2000.000	01:46.000	01:46.086	1:46.084	1
B	1958.000	01:47.000	01:47.086	1:48.978	24

There is another adage that comes when the race has been completed.

This is a matrix lookup table for Don.

Here is simply another small incentive to doing what is expected or better. At no time ever does this matrix subtract any points gathered, it does however add a fraction of a point to those that deserves it due to performance. We are talking less than 8 tenths of a point here at most.

Don on his ELO rating system delivers a rating which sequentially provides and order which in laymans terms is broken into Expected Finish.

If we have a 2000.000 and 1990.000 driver, we expect the 2000.000 to finish 1st and the other 2nd.

If the 1990.000 driver however beats their expected finish value they get this slight point reward. In this case a Gold Driver, expected 2 finish 1 = 0.19 points. Which will then get added to their race points.

The 2000.000 driver was E1 F2, which carries 0 points added.

Throughout the entire season with the ups and downs you might see a total of up to 1 point odd added. It could make a difference in the end.

It is not plenty of points, well calling it points is actually wrong since it is most likely less than a point.

We will run this for this coming season and if we need to up this more we could, starting to use it however is important.

The matrix has Plat to Bronze with values against each POSITIVE case:

Plat:
E1 F1 = 0.37
E2 F1 = 0.39
E2 F2 = 0.37
E3 F1 = 0.41
etc.

Gold:

E1 F1 = 0.23
E2 F1 = 0.25
E2 F2 = 0.23
E3 F1 = 0.27
etc.

Same for gold, silver and Bronze. Plat has up to E6, Gold up to E10, Silver up to E14 and Bronze up to E24 within the matrix.

You will note that it also pays to rise through to a higher group as the values favors being of higher build group.

Incentivizing desired behavior is something we do in gaming all the time. As you likely remember, I've worked in gaming for quite a while! Also, as a software development manager, I have to incentivize staff to do the right thing for the company, team, and product. So I'll fully support this.

So as a check I ran the numbers using the data from the Spa race, low and behold it is awesome, even if it meant losing 2nd place to McLaren who would have jumped grid position! Yes he would have started 2nd and me 3rd!

Why do I think it is good even though I would have lost a position?
For those that can recall, McLaren and I tangled with him trying to pass and I went off lost positions etc. This way he would have had the place from the grid. His performance leading up to the race pulled him clear of the 0.2s gap I had in Qualifying. He had a 0.5 gap on leaderboard as well as a higher rating. The end result adjusted Qualifying times were very close and had I been slightly faster in Qualifying, I would have kept 2nd.

The Tool does precisely what I aimed it to do, and that is reward people in full for their entire performance pre-race start.

ZAR Eries wrote:So as a check I ran the numbers using the data from the Spa race, low and behold it is awesome, even if it meant losing 2nd place to McLaren who would have jumped grid position! Yes he would have started 2nd and me 3rd!

Why do I think it is good even though I would have lost a position?
For those that can recall, McLaren and I tangled with him trying to pass and I went off lost positions etc. This way he would have had the place from the grid. His performance leading up to the race pulled him clear of the 0.2s gap I had in Qualifying. He had a 0.5 gap on leaderboard as well as a higher rating. The end result adjusted Qualifying times were very close and had I been slightly faster in Qualifying, I would have kept 2nd.

The Tool does precisely what I aimed it to do, and that is reward people in full for their entire performance pre-race start.

Very exciting!

I'm sure i don't understand what this is, but from what I take from it even if u qualify in one spot and if you had a bad time someone can still knock you down a spot? Idk this was supposed to be racing and have fun type of thing, this isn't real life. I understand yall want equal racers but the only way someone can get better is seat time. People girlie dog and complain because they are slow, well practice and get better. I understand all this stuff when i first started racing with you guys, but this is going way to deep and is no longer fun for me. I didn't do last season because yall are running relay races like its track and field. I understand it's something different but if your slow then your slow get better don't handicap me with tires or whatever. Anyway, no matter what you do you can't make up for slow people, just get better at the game and do research for tuning it's not that hard. Even if I'm completely wrong, I'm not having fun, so it is what it is. Have fun and if yall want to have a real race hit me up, but I'm done. No hate toward you guys at all, like i said i could be completely wrong but a video game is a video game and real life is real life. Just too much bull for a series that's supposed to be just for fun. Peace to all and maybe it'll be different in FM8. Until then i have no interest in the series, sorry to disappoint

bulletgtr89 wrote:I'm sure i don't understand what this is, but from what I take from it even if u qualify in one spot and if you had a bad time someone can still knock you down a spot? Idk this was supposed to be racing and have fun type of thing, this isn't real life. I understand yall want equal racers but the only way someone can get better is seat time. People girlie dog and complain because they are slow, well practice and get better. I understand all this stuff when i first started racing with you guys, but this is going way to deep and is no longer fun for me. I didn't do last season because yall are running relay races like its track and field. I understand it's something different but if your slow then your slow get better don't handicap me with tires or whatever. Anyway, no matter what you do you can't make up for slow people, just get better at the game and do research for tuning it's not that hard. Even if I'm completely wrong, I'm not having fun, so it is what it is. Have fun and if yall want to have a real race hit me up, but I'm done. No hate toward you guys at all, like i said i could be completely wrong but a video game is a video game and real life is real life. Just too much bull for a series that's supposed to be just for fun. Peace to all and maybe it'll be different in FM8. Until then i have no interest in the series, sorry to disappoint

Sorry to hear that Bullet, something must have gotten lost in the translation. (not hard to do) lol  Everything is just for fun still.  We are no more or less serious than any previous season. 

No one has to bother with fully understanding how we are doing this reward system; how we are actually making things more equal in a variety of ways.  As a driver all you have to know is that unlike in seasons past, you will be compensated based on your expected performance.  Do better than expected, and you will be rewarded.  Whereas in the past there was no extra performance reward either for grid position or season points.  All we are doing is making it more attractive to want to do your best.  Conversely, we are making it less attractive to not do your best too.

The performance reward system was designed to be as minimal as possible and yet still have the intended effect.  Which is another way of saying what's being offered is fairly small. Nevertheless, it is enough to make a difference at the end of the season.  Those who try hard and really put in the effort will see the greatest gains.  And it sounds like this is what you want.  You said slow people need to, "practice harder and get better."  And we agree with you and think this might be the best way to get them there.

Too many drivers have had the dread of jumping up to the next driver skill level, either from Bronze to Silver or Silver to Gold, or especially Gold to Platinum.  The feeling was that you gained nothing and lost too much for doing so.  So, some drivers would just hold back and try to stay in their usual classification.  Now, there are these performance rewards incentivizing everyone to go to the next level where they can gain even more. 

In other words, it no longer pays to stay where you are.  To hold back, or sandbag, or not put in a good effort, hurts you and you will have only yourself to blame for it.  With this system everyone will be able to see at a glance who is really trying, and who is really practicing harder.  Hopefully this makes it a little more understandable to you and anyone else who has the same questions.

As for the format itself, it's about as basic and straight forward as we ever get.  It's just a single driver championship (no teams) with 7 races.  It's as close to Spec racing without actually being a Spec race.  Everyone will be in the same kind of car each round, but they will have different makes and models to pick from.

Using this system on the Spa race data, pre-race start.

Couple of things:
Zach and Cafe didnt submit any leaderboard time and thus their LB ratio is low, which affects the grid.

Dino and Creech had dirty laps which means their QT ratio os low which affects the grid.

With all these entered here is the breakdown:
1. No change in grid after Qualifying - 31%
2. Grid Improved after Qualifying - 38%
3. Grid down movement after Qualifying - 31%

As stated above only #3 is negatively impacted, and with the 4 racers above mentioned already. 5 racers were impacted, in turn meaning truly only 1 racer saw a drop in grid position by a single spot from 13th to 14th on the grid.

I said clearly that the effect is marginal, it would have been even smaller if the 4 racers mentioned had leaderboard times as well as clean Qualifying laps.

To test Im taking the qualifying time of Zach and Cafe and using that as a mock LB time, and also un-dirty Dino and Creech QTs:
1. No Change - 44%
2. Grid Improve - 31%
3. Grid decline - 25%

Comparing these two there are two racers, that experience grid improvement and decline.

So you need to look at fairness, more than base everything of a single event.

If you put in effort, we see that and it is fair to reward you with a small incentive. If you just show up on Saturday, with no time submitted etc, It starts to make it difficult, what if 24 racers submitted times? This would mean you wont be able to race anyway, but slotting you in isnt 100% fair to the others, so we allocate a generic Leaderboard time for you, which is 0.001 slower than the slowest time on the Leader Board (not fair to mock a faster time). This affects you.

What it all boils down to and I know Im talking about one or two racers in total, is to submit a LB time and run a clean QT time, thats all. If this is taking the "fun" away then ... Okay then.

I am negatively affected by the Test from Spa data. Do I mind ... NO, cause it is fair to say, McLaren obviously put in more effort to record a faster LB time. He almost blew it in Qualifying but did enough to keep 2nd.

Life is about not only you, see what others are doing and acknowledge this, if a reward comes their way, stop a moment, raise your glass and say, Oi ... Welldone, you deserve the spot above me, I'll get you next one.

If rising matters to you, you would try harder. If it doesnt then nothing changes for you, you race cause it is "just for fun", so any grid position is then good for you. If grid position matters, then surprise surprise, it is NOT "just for fun", you just sugar coat the saying to put butter on both sides of your bread.

Now I read your post carefully and it would actually BENEFIT you, cause you hammer the point on, get better, seat time etc. Unless you mean, you just want to pitch up and race?

But further to that if you Qualify and you had a bad time, you probably could only maybe gain a spot because your Leader Board time and rating will pull you up. Alternatively you will just end up in the spot that you had. I dont think you understand fully. You have always submitted an above average LB time.

I'll do something to explain more, I will simulate exactly what you mentioned, to show you.

Okay I did the following:

1.
Gave you a LB time 7/9 and qualy time 9/9, final Grid 9/9

2.
Gave you a LB time 6/9 and qualy time same as above 9/9, final grid 8/9


So in both cases you had a bad day at qualifying. In case 1 your LB time were low as well, end result, no change and you are in the same spot on the grid as what Qualifying had you in, 9th.

In case two you had the same Qualifying bad day but here you had a better LB time, this pulled you up a spot to 8th on the grid not 9th as case 1.

Get it now?

If you want to "just for fun" it, you will see no change, but if you want to be more competitive you will gain against others that equally want to be more competitive. Thats the call you can make here, you decide.

The top guys always want to be majorly competitive and take it seriously, where they would chase each other on the Leader Board and then try and get as high up as possible in Qualifying, it is here were the changes are happening, it is here that we reward competitiveness, again it doesnt change for you if you arent in this group.

If I can finally say, in order to benefit from this system there is only one thing that you HAVE to do, and that is submit the very best time you can for the leaderboard, that is the key, which you have always done anyway, so I actually see you as the competitive group even if you dont believe you are.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this pans out and appreciate the hard work. If Don is open to a change, then I am too!

In light of the rumor mill and false allegations of manipulated ratings, it was time to share the ratings program with someone we can all trust. Eries is a founding member of the IFCA, is well versed in Excel, and has a grasp of Elo formulas.  He now has in his possession the actual IFCA ratings program that has been used for the past 4-5 years.  That is to say, no changes to the program formula has happened in the last 5 years.  This means he can randomly go back in time and plug in the ratings results from previous  races and see if he gets the same output.  This will confirm that no funny business has every occurred.  Hopefully everyone who is a sceptic and those leaning toward the conspiracy theory that the ratings are nothing more than GTDon's opinion, will regain whatever lost confidence they once had as a result.

Feel free to contact Eries and ask him anything you want about the program.

BUILD UPDATES:

We did slightly downgrade the 1969 Mustang and we upgraded the 2015 Bentley which is the only AWD car and the only car that reaches up into the R-Class in the Bronze build.

If anyone is interested, I spent a little time tuning the 2007 Mustang GT500 for Monza and re-shared.  The Silver build runs low 1:51s and my Bronze build runs low 1:50s.

GTDon2 wrote:BUILD UPDATES:

We did slightly downgrade the 1969 Mustang and we upgraded the 2015 Bentley which is the only AWD car and the only car that reaches up into the R-Class in the Bronze build.

Additional build changes are as follows, the 1995 Mustang SVT got a slight bump in hp, as did the 1997 Mazda RX-7.  But the 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat had some hp taken from it. (sorry Nova, not this season lol)

We do not anticipate any further corrections with Group 6.

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:BUILD UPDATES:

We did slightly downgrade the 1969 Mustang and we upgraded the 2015 Bentley which is the only AWD car and the only car that reaches up into the R-Class in the Bronze build.

Additional build changes are as follows, the 1995 Mustang SVT got a slight bump in hp, as did the 1997 Mazda RX-7.  But the 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat had some hp taken from it. (sorry Nova, not this season lol)

We do not anticipate any further corrections with Group 6.

We are done with the Group 6 triple check, but we have a few more to go with Group 12a.  We have downgraded the 2015 Corvette, the 2014 Porsche 911, and the 1992 Honda NSX, watch this thread for further adjustments to Group 12a.  We should be totally done by Sept 9th Friday.

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:BUILD UPDATES:

We did slightly downgrade the 1969 Mustang and we upgraded the 2015 Bentley which is the only AWD car and the only car that reaches up into the R-Class in the Bronze build.

Additional build changes are as follows, the 1995 Mustang SVT got a slight bump in hp, as did the 1997 Mazda RX-7.  But the 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat had some hp taken from it. (sorry Nova, not this season lol)

We do not anticipate any further corrections with Group 6.

We are done with the Group 6 triple check, but we have a few more to go with Group 12a.  We have downgraded the 2015 Corvette, the 2014 Porsche 911, and the 1992 Honda NSX, watch this thread for further adjustments to Group 12a.  We should be totally done by Sept 9th Friday.

Additional build changes to Group 12a are as follows, 1965 Shelby Daytona downgraded, along with the 1994 Ferrari F355 and 2002 Lotus Esprit. The 1970 Corvette was upgraded.

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:BUILD UPDATES:

We did slightly downgrade the 1969 Mustang and we upgraded the 2015 Bentley which is the only AWD car and the only car that reaches up into the R-Class in the Bronze build.

Additional build changes are as follows, the 1995 Mustang SVT got a slight bump in hp, as did the 1997 Mazda RX-7.  But the 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat had some hp taken from it. (sorry Nova, not this season lol)

We do not anticipate any further corrections with Group 6.

We are done with the Group 6 triple check, but we have a few more to go with Group 12a.  We have downgraded the 2015 Corvette, the 2014 Porsche 911, and the 1992 Honda NSX, watch this thread for further adjustments to Group 12a.  We should be totally done by Sept 9th Friday.

Additional build changes to Group 12a are as follows, 1965 Shelby Daytona downgraded, along with the 1994 Ferrari F355 and 2002 Lotus Esprit. The 1970 Corvette was upgraded.

Additional changes to Group12a are as follows. 1995 Corvette upgraded, 2007 Ferrari 430 upgraded, 2010 Nissan 370Z upgraded, 2000 Ford Mustang downgraded, and the 2002 Corvette downgraded.

For those that feel there are some cars that are faster then others, off course, you have to also concider driving style etc.

Don and I have this week alone spent more than 3hrs each day going through the cars and builds etc. Its tedious and I cant tell you how tired I am already of the opening tracks lol, but we do this to try and get them as close as we can.

I also heard mention that people feel eg. They get better times in Silver than Bronze, no this is so far from the truth, the Bronze builds are way faster. The difference between Bronze and Silver is 100% handling, here you need to get the most out of this. If you tend to take a corner easy, the bronze car will do nothing extra for you, you can push these Racing tyre cars so much further through corners, get better exit grip and make up a hell of a lot of time.

But again there is NO rule that says if you are bronze you HAVE to be in a bronze build. You can drive any build equal or lower than your rank. So if you are a Bronze guy and feel Silver is better, go ahead drive the Silver build, gold build or even Platinum. The only rule is that you cant drive a higher build, meaning a silver cant drive a bronze, gold cant driver silver/bronze and Platinum cant drive gold/silver/bronze.