IFCA Series News
+13
WritesCode4Food
jason"1shot"
RIOT ChevyPower
D1mien
ZHP_2004
latte speed
papa creech172
IFCA Eries
EZT Neo 45
Midnite Rider
EZT TomCat7
Ax4x Nelly
IFCA GTDon
17 posters
Page 32 of 32
Page 32 of 32 • 1 ... 17 ... 30, 31, 32
Re: IFCA Series News
GTDon2 wrote:
Provided we can keep drivers interested in Forza with how it evolves through T10 updates each month, we will likely begin organizing a Triple Crown series in the future. It's long overdue. It just takes a lot of guys to stick with it is the problem more than anything.
For those of you who don't know, the IFCA Triple Crown was a semi-annual event where we used the IFCA relay format in 3 extra long races. It was never an actual series. The relay format allows teams to share the driving duties like in a real endurance race through a sequence of pit stops. It's the only way to simulate endurance racing driver exchanges in Forza without having the actual feature to do so.
In this way a 2 man team can operate as a team and experience all the ups and downs that endurance racing offers. It makes for some super fun racing and exciting finishes.
We are looking into a program where we have twelve 2 man teams. Each driver would take a 1 hour stint making it a 2 hour race. We would use 4 classes of cars just like IMSA does. 4 teams would be in the top GTP class. 4 teams would be in the LMP2 class, and 4 teams would be in the GTD Pro with 4 teams in the GTD class, for a total of 12 teams and 24 drivers. Each class would have just 2 cars to pick from.
The thinking is to have a kind of equal legends vs lions car selection, meaning old school vs new to mix things up in a fun way. Some people don't like the new cars as much as the old and some do, so why not offer a bit of both.
As far as how many stints will be used per hour is not set yet. We could break each hour of racing into 2 or 4 or just 1 pit stop exchange. We are still studying it. As the veterans know, too many stint's gets confusing and doesn't allow drivers to get in a good rhythm, whereas too few stints can make the race too static and boring waiting for your turn.
Feel free to offer your suggestions if you have any, here. Thanks.
Here are the cars being considered:
GTP | 2023 Cadillac #01 |
1985 Nissan #83 GTP ZX-Turbo | |
LMP2 | 2017 Ferrari #25 Corse Clienti 488 |
1991 Ford #15 Roush Racing Mustang | |
GTD Pro | 2005 Ford GT |
1967 Ferrari #24 330 P4 | |
GTD | 1999 Dodge Viper GTS ACR |
1965 Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe |
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
As cool as it sounds old vs new school the way forza is makes for bad racing you either get a rocket ship or a car that handles too good yes they can run same times but bad racing on track maybe if 4 classes do upper 2 classes all new and lower 2 all old and with a 2 car per class you can def make 2 cars very close that are already in same division which should make building for equal pretty easy
RIOT ChevyPower- IFCA LICENSE: ADVANCED
- Posts : 54
Registration date : 2019-02-05
Re: IFCA Series News
RIOT ChevyPower wrote:As cool as it sounds old vs new school the way forza is makes for bad racing you either get a rocket ship or a car that handles too good yes they can run same times but bad racing on track maybe if 4 classes do upper 2 classes all new and lower 2 all old and with a 2 car per class you can def make 2 cars very close that are already in same division which should make building for equal pretty easy
Were it not for the format I would agree. Normally you are right, but with the relay, the cars get spread out more, even when they are Spec cars. So, I think it is probably fine in this case honestly. In fact, your concern is so shared that I would also not recommend different era cars in any other format either. But the relay is uniquely different and the only format that can get away with this. So it becomes the one time when you can really do this sort of thing.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Car selection
After experimenting with car selection during Season 1 of the new game, we will continue to allow you to use either one of the two cars offered in each class for each track. We feel that doing so doesn't hurt the racing at all but to the contrary makes picking a car less of a headache, more flexible, and closer, with more strategic racing. In this way no one is stuck in 1 car, you'll have 2 different cars to use how you like the whole season.
As for which class you wish to compete in, this will all depend on which class you qualify in on the practice leaderboard before the season begins. There will only be 4 team slots open per class. For example, let's say you want to run in the top GTP class, but 4 teams record a faster combined average time then your team; you'll have 2 choices at that point, get faster and bump one of them out, or post times in a different class.
The only difference between GTD Pro and GTD, is the name and the cars. The relative performance of both classes is intended to be the same and in the same Forza class, S-Class in this case.
In real life the GTD Pro teams race the same cars as GTD, the difference being the drivers. GTD are Pro/Am teams, and GTD Pro are all Pro drivers only. We will not use this same distinction and require our Pro drivers to run as a team. Instead we will offer 2 cars for each class with an equal BoP. This means that there will be 2 GTD Pro teams and 2 GTD teams.
So, the new twist or wrinkle if you haven't noticed (aside from car selection) is that this relay format is a multi-class series where you will only be competing against 3 other teams per class. Each class will earn its own separate championship title.
As for which class you wish to compete in, this will all depend on which class you qualify in on the practice leaderboard before the season begins. There will only be 4 team slots open per class. For example, let's say you want to run in the top GTP class, but 4 teams record a faster combined average time then your team; you'll have 2 choices at that point, get faster and bump one of them out, or post times in a different class.
1 | GTP |
2 | GTP |
3 | GTP |
4 | GTP |
5 | LMP2 |
6 | LMP2 |
7 | LMP2 |
8 | LMP2 |
9 | GTD Pro |
10 | GTD Pro |
11 | GTD |
12 | GTD |
The only difference between GTD Pro and GTD, is the name and the cars. The relative performance of both classes is intended to be the same and in the same Forza class, S-Class in this case.
In real life the GTD Pro teams race the same cars as GTD, the difference being the drivers. GTD are Pro/Am teams, and GTD Pro are all Pro drivers only. We will not use this same distinction and require our Pro drivers to run as a team. Instead we will offer 2 cars for each class with an equal BoP. This means that there will be 2 GTD Pro teams and 2 GTD teams.
So, the new twist or wrinkle if you haven't noticed (aside from car selection) is that this relay format is a multi-class series where you will only be competing against 3 other teams per class. Each class will earn its own separate championship title.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
GTDon2 wrote:After experimenting with car selection during Season 1 of the new game, we will continue to allow you to use either one of the two cars offered in each class for each track. We feel that doing so doesn't hurt the racing at all but to the contrary makes picking a car less of a headache, more flexible, and closer, with more strategic racing. In this way no one is stuck in 1 car, you'll have 2 different cars to use how you like the whole season.
As for which class you wish to compete in, this will all depend on which class you qualify in on the practice leaderboard before the season begins. There will only be 4 team slots open per class. For example, let's say you want to run in the top GTP class, but 4 teams record a faster combined average time then your team; you'll have 2 choices at that point, get faster and bump one of them out, or post times in a different class.
1 GTP 2 GTP 3 GTP 4 GTP 5 LMP2 6 LMP2 7 LMP2 8 LMP2 9 GTD Pro 10 GTD Pro 11 GTD 12 GTD
The only difference between GTD Pro and GTD, is the name and the cars. The relative performance of both classes is intended to be the same and in the same Forza class, S-Class in this case.
In real life the GTD Pro teams race the same cars as GTD, the difference being the drivers. GTD are Pro/Am teams, and GTD Pro are all Pro drivers only. We will not use this same distinction and require our Pro drivers to run as a team. Instead we will offer 2 cars for each class with an equal BoP. This means that there will be 2 GTD Pro teams and 2 GTD teams.
So, the new twist or wrinkle if you haven't noticed (aside from car selection) is that this relay format is a multi-class series where you will only be competing against 3 other teams per class. Each class will earn its own separate championship title.
Okay, it sounds like a few of us would prefer there be fewer classes in order to have more drivers competing directly against each other. With 3-4 classes you can only have 4 racers per class. But, if we only have 2 classes, we can have 6 racers racing against each other on the track from each of the two classes. That would be 12 drivers on the track at the same time with a 24 grid field. It would still be considered a multi-class race too.
I'll be looking at which car classes and cars to use in a 2 class relay format, and get back to everyone soon.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
papa creech172 likes this post
Car Classes
Okay boys, I think we have an idea of what we want now. Still not written in stone yet, but I think this is the right direction all things considered.
The 2 classes will be GTP and TA. That's right, we have been trying to figure out a way to race the TA cars since we have always been a Trans Am race league essentially. Our good fortune is that Forza is the first sim to ever offer actual modern American TA racing cars. Not iRacing, not Assetto Corsa, not Gran Turismo, no one has ever done this. Well, we can't very well ignore this good fortune now can we. No. We have to figure out a way to incorporate these amazing beasts with what we do.
The problem is, they are all DLC cars! Thanks T10. Not everyone will have all of them or any of them it turns out. The solution then has to be to offer some sort of equitable alternative replacement cars that can equally compete with the TA cars for those drivers who don't have the TA cars. This is a tall order whether in a sim or real life because the TA cars are in a league of their own. They are flat out raw race cars with tubular chassis designs, full race suspensions, huge tires, and use an unlimited NASCAR style small block V8, that's normally aspirated, of around 800hp! They are one of the last unlimited classes in all of motorsports without ABS or TCS.
In real life the TA cars can be somewhat compared to the top of the line GT cars of IMSA and the WEC, which are more production based race cars. The TA cars have superior speed to GT cars but lack the high tech sophistication of TCS, ABS, and computer control. GT cars are somewhat better getting in and out of the corners than the TA cars, but lack the enormous horsepower of the TA cars.
In Forza it is a bit different. The TA cars actually handle as well or better than the GT cars in part because we do have access to TCS and ABS. As for speed, the GT cars we think can be made to be as fast as the TA cars for those of us who do not have the DLC TA cars.
The other class we have our eye on is the GTP class, or the Prototype class. One of the issues with multi-class racing is having too large a gap between car class performance. This tends to create more crashes with faster cars running into the back of drastically slower cars. So, if you can narrow the performance gap between classes, less problems tend to occur.
By using the TA cars, they will be closer and safer to the Prototype cars, allowing drivers to better gauge the tremendous closing speeds. In this way the lower class TA cars won't be as much of a hinderance or danger on the track as a slower type car would be.
We will be doing some preliminary testing with various cars from each class including the alternative replacement GT cars, and see how it goes now that we don't have to level the cars up anymore and can just buy the parts...
The 2 classes will be GTP and TA. That's right, we have been trying to figure out a way to race the TA cars since we have always been a Trans Am race league essentially. Our good fortune is that Forza is the first sim to ever offer actual modern American TA racing cars. Not iRacing, not Assetto Corsa, not Gran Turismo, no one has ever done this. Well, we can't very well ignore this good fortune now can we. No. We have to figure out a way to incorporate these amazing beasts with what we do.
The problem is, they are all DLC cars! Thanks T10. Not everyone will have all of them or any of them it turns out. The solution then has to be to offer some sort of equitable alternative replacement cars that can equally compete with the TA cars for those drivers who don't have the TA cars. This is a tall order whether in a sim or real life because the TA cars are in a league of their own. They are flat out raw race cars with tubular chassis designs, full race suspensions, huge tires, and use an unlimited NASCAR style small block V8, that's normally aspirated, of around 800hp! They are one of the last unlimited classes in all of motorsports without ABS or TCS.
In real life the TA cars can be somewhat compared to the top of the line GT cars of IMSA and the WEC, which are more production based race cars. The TA cars have superior speed to GT cars but lack the high tech sophistication of TCS, ABS, and computer control. GT cars are somewhat better getting in and out of the corners than the TA cars, but lack the enormous horsepower of the TA cars.
In Forza it is a bit different. The TA cars actually handle as well or better than the GT cars in part because we do have access to TCS and ABS. As for speed, the GT cars we think can be made to be as fast as the TA cars for those of us who do not have the DLC TA cars.
The other class we have our eye on is the GTP class, or the Prototype class. One of the issues with multi-class racing is having too large a gap between car class performance. This tends to create more crashes with faster cars running into the back of drastically slower cars. So, if you can narrow the performance gap between classes, less problems tend to occur.
By using the TA cars, they will be closer and safer to the Prototype cars, allowing drivers to better gauge the tremendous closing speeds. In this way the lower class TA cars won't be as much of a hinderance or danger on the track as a slower type car would be.
We will be doing some preliminary testing with various cars from each class including the alternative replacement GT cars, and see how it goes now that we don't have to level the cars up anymore and can just buy the parts...
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
papa creech172 likes this post
Re: IFCA Series News
GTDon2 wrote:Okay boys, I think we have an idea of what we want now. Still not written in stone yet, but I think this is the right direction all things considered.
The 2 classes will be GTP and TA. That's right, we have been trying to figure out a way to race the TA cars since we have always been a Trans Am race league essentially. Our good fortune is that Forza is the first sim to ever offer actual modern American TA racing cars. Not iRacing, not Assetto Corsa, not Gran Turismo, no one has ever done this. Well, we can't very well ignore this good fortune now can we. No. We have to figure out a way to incorporate these amazing beasts with what we do.
The problem is, they are all DLC cars! Thanks T10. Not everyone will have all of them or any of them it turns out. The solution then has to be to offer some sort of equitable alternative replacement cars that can equally compete with the TA cars for those drivers who don't have the TA cars. This is a tall order whether in a sim or real life because the TA cars are in a league of their own. They are flat out raw race cars with tubular chassis designs, full race suspensions, huge tires, and use an unlimited NASCAR style small block V8, that's normally aspirated, of around 800hp! They are one of the last unlimited classes in all of motorsports without ABS or TCS.
In real life the TA cars can be somewhat compared to the top of the line GT cars of IMSA and the WEC, which are more production based race cars. The TA cars have superior speed to GT cars but lack the high tech sophistication of TCS, ABS, and computer control. GT cars are somewhat better getting in and out of the corners than the TA cars, but lack the enormous horsepower of the TA cars.
In Forza it is a bit different. The TA cars actually handle as well or better than the GT cars in part because we do have access to TCS and ABS. As for speed, the GT cars we think can be made to be as fast as the TA cars for those of us who do not have the DLC TA cars.
The other class we have our eye on is the GTP class, or the Prototype class. One of the issues with multi-class racing is having too large a gap between car class performance. This tends to create more crashes with faster cars running into the back of drastically slower cars. So, if you can narrow the performance gap between classes, less problems tend to occur.
By using the TA cars, they will be closer and safer to the Prototype cars, allowing drivers to better gauge the tremendous closing speeds. In this way the lower class TA cars won't be as much of a hinderance or danger on the track as a slower type car would be.
We will be doing some preliminary testing with various cars from each class including the alternative replacement GT cars, and see how it goes now that we don't have to level the cars up anymore and can just buy the parts...
So glad we can now just buy parts and build cars as we see fit. This is a huge help for league organizers.
So far, we have managed to balance and equalize the lower class group of cars for the proposed Season 3 relay. All 4 TA cars will be able to be used as R-Class cars, and for those who don't have some of these cars, we have opted to offer you just 1 alternative car to use as a substitute. Mainly because there was only 1 R-Class race car that had the performance capability to keep up with these monster 850hp TA cars, that wasn't itself also some sort of DLC car. That being the C8 Corvette race car. So, if you don't have a TA car (shame on you) your option is to use the C8 Corvette race car.
Builds will be revealed soon so that everyone has the maximum time they can have to get used to driving these things well before Season 3 begins. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but we will reinstitute the car handicaps for this format. We will also continue using our current driver rating system as it is. And, teammates will not be forced to use the same car, they will need to have the same livery however. Teams will also be able to switch cars each round as they so desire.
Next up in testing will be 4 P-Class cars.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Season 3 relay endurance car lineup
Alrighty then, below are the cars for Season 3. Actual builds will be posted soon.
You may use any car to race each week within a given class. You may not switch classes however. Whichever class you qualify with to get into the season is the class you must stick with. You and your teammate must race in the same class, but may use different cars each week from that class.
GTP (P-Class)
1.) 2023 Cadillac #01 Cadillac Racing V-Series R
2.) 2010 Chevrolet #55 Level 5 Motorsports Oreca FLM09
3.) 1999 BMW #15 Motorsport V12 LMR
4.) 1985 Nissan #83 GTP ZX-Turbo
TA (R-Class)
1.) 2020 Chevrolet #3 Corvette Racing C8.R
2.) 2019 Dodge #9 American Road Racing TA Challenger
3.) 2018 Chevrolet #23 Ruman Racing TA Corvette
4.) 2018 Ford #98 Breathless Pro Racing TA Mustang
5.) 2018 Cadillac #57 TA CTS-V
Tracks
Watkins Glen full
Daytona 24hr
Sebring
Road America
LeMans
Last edited by GTDon2 on Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
GTDon2 wrote:
Alrighty then, below are the cars for Season 3. Actual builds will be posted soon.
You may use any car to race each week within a given class. You may not switch classes however. Whichever class you qualify with to get into the season is the class you must stick with. You and your teammate must race in the same class, but may use different cars each week from that class.
GTP (P-Class)
1.) 2023 Cadillac #01 Cadillac Racing V-Series R
2.) 2010 Chevrolet #55 Level 5 Motorsports Oreca FLM09
3.) 1999 BMW #15 Motorsport V12 LMR
4.) 1985 Nissan #83 GTP ZX-Turbo
TA (R-Class)
1.) 2020 Chevrolet #3 Corvette Racing C8.R
2.) 2019 Dodge #9 American Road Racing TA Challenger
3.) 2018 Chevrolet #23 Ruman Racing TA Corvette
4.) 2018 Ford #98 Breathless Pro Racing TA Mustang
5.) 2018 Cadillac #57 TA CTS-V
Tracks
Watkins Glen full
Daytona 24hr
Sebring
Road America
LeMans
Bear in mind there is a limited number of grid positions for each class. Each class only has 6 grid positions open using a 2 man team format. If there are more TA qualifiers than there are GTP qualifiers, those outside of the 6 top TA teams will be moved to GTP. Or, if there are more GTP teams than TA teams, again those outside of the top 6 will be filtered over to the TA class. We require there to be an equal number (6 teams) for each class is why.
Both classes are competing for their own class championship. Your combined team finishing order determines your team's finishing position points each race. Finishing 1 and 2 is a net average of 1.5 or the best anyone can do, and thus #1 finishing order points, for example.
We will also do a "dry run" practice race the week before the season begins to insure everyone understands how the format works.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Start practicing now with Season 3 cars
Because there will be "limited seating" in Season 3 with just 6 teams for each class, you should start your testing NOW so you can make sure your 2 man team gets into the class you want. It is your best combined average team practice lap time that will be counted for your class and grid position. The top 6 GTP teams and the top 6 TA teams will be based on combined team average practice laps. If you are bumped out of say GTP, you can then attempt to get into the TA class or vice versa.
This is why we have posted the builds as quickly as we did. So that everyone can have plenty of time to test out all the cars they like. Remember, you don't have to drive the same car as your teammate, but you do have to be in the same class, either GTP or TA.
builds are here:
https://ifca.forumotion.com/t6907-season-3-fm-car-builds
This is why we have posted the builds as quickly as we did. So that everyone can have plenty of time to test out all the cars they like. Remember, you don't have to drive the same car as your teammate, but you do have to be in the same class, either GTP or TA.
builds are here:
https://ifca.forumotion.com/t6907-season-3-fm-car-builds
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
IFCA Discord!
You asked for it, you get it! The IFCA Discord is now active! All you need to do is go sign-in.
https://discord.gg/ZsFA6Ns6
https://discord.gg/ZsFA6Ns6
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
IFCA GTDon wrote:You asked for it, you get it! The IFCA Discord is now active! All you need to do is go sign-in.
https://discord.gg/ZsFA6Ns6
I will be posting my screen captured times on the Xbox Live club site for all to see.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Season 4 Super Spec June 15th!
After many years of dozens of different racing formats, some good, some bad, the IFCA is poised to return to the very beginning of its inception i.e., Spec Racing. Back in the day, this is where the IFCA began.
Like a lot of things that work well just as they are, Spec racing is naturally easier to do than any other format. You have certain cars with certain requirements and specific limits that uniformly fit into a certain class, and call it good. The natural result is relatively close racing. But more importantly is how it can bring about the motivation in drivers to want to seriously compete.
This is because the feeling of Spec Racing is that everything is entirely equal. With sim-racing, spec racing can go beyond reality via the use of truly identical cars, something that is not entirely possible in real life. Yes, you can enter a spec Miata race in real life, and although all the cars have sealed motors the power output of each car will still be slightly different. Then there is the myriad of tuning tricks at each drivers disposal too. So what you have is still not as precisely identical as what we can do in sim-racing.
But, sim-racing suffers from the opposite side of the spec equation. Sure, we can create identical cars and force everyone into a single car with a single build, and even an identical tune, but this doesn't produce the kind of equality that you'd think. All you are really doing is creating a specific car, and style of driving, that will favor certain kinds of drivers abilities. By placing everyone in say an identical totally stock D-Class Honda Civic, drivers (and testers) who only drive stock cars all the time, have an enormous advantage over drivers who don't. Drivers who mostly drive in D-Class will also have a huge advantage. So what's the solution?
The solution is to use a bit of both, taking the good from reality and virtual reality, and leaving the bad. Creating a mix or semi-Spec format that has an ideal balance, so that no one type of driver has any major unfair advantages.
Here's what you do. You give drivers more than one single car to use, you require certain tires, you limit the hp, and you then allow drivers to build and tune as they see fit. This kind of combination covers all the bases in a way that favors no one, avoids the use of leaderboard cars, limits the builds and tuning, allows drivers to adjust the cars to their way of driving, doesn't force anyone to drive a car they hate, for a whole season, and still allows a variety of cars to be selected.
We call this format model, "Super Spec."
The class selection is important too. In order to be fair, we have to split the season into 2, with a lower class for the first half, and a upper class for the second half of a season. This way drivers who excel at lower class cars get their opportunities, just as the drivers who excel at the upper classes do.
So, as it stands, this is the way it will be. The first set of 3 races will be in C-Class between GM and FoMoCo. The second half of the season will be Ferrari vs Porsche in S-Class.
The build restrictions; you must have widest race tires, stock engine hp, stock rim sizes, and no swapping restrictor plates all while fitting into the respective classes. Everything else is permitted. Downforce, weight, ballast, wheels, race parts, drivetrains, body kits, etc.
C-Class
1.Catalunya GP, Saturday June 15th 6pm CST
2.Eagle Rock Club, Saturday June 22nd 6pm CST
3.Laguna Seca Short, Saturday June 29th 6pm CST
S-Class
4.Spa, Saturday July 13th 6pm CST
5.Grand Oak Reverse, Saturday July 20th 6pm CST
6.Homestead Road course, Saturday July 27th 6pm CST
Cars
C-Class | GM | FoMoCo |
Chevrolet | Ford | |
1990 Camaro IROC-Z | 2003 Focus RS | |
1970 Camaro Z/28 | 1999 Racing Puma | |
1969 Nova SS 396 | 1993 Mustang SVT Cobra | |
1969 Camaro SS | 1992 Escort RS Cosworth | |
1992 Falcon GT | ||
Pontiac | 1987 Sierra Cosworth RS500 | |
1987 Firebird Tran Am GTA | 1986 Mustang SVO | |
1973 Firebird Trans Am 455 | 1973 Falcon GT | |
1969 GTO Judge | 1969 Mustang Boss 302 | |
1969 Firebird Trans Am | 1968 Mustang GT | |
1965 Mustang GT Coupe | ||
Holden | ||
1988 Commodore SV | Mercury | |
1977 Holden Torana | 1970 Cougar Eliminator | |
1973 Monaro GTS 350 | ||
Buick | ||
1987 Buick GNX | ||
1970 Buick GSX | ||
Oldsmobile | ||
1970 Olds Hurst 442 | ||
Vauxhall | ||
2016 Corsa VXR | ||
2012 Astra VXR | ||
2006 Astra VXR | ||
S-Class | Ferrari | Porsche |
2020 Roma | 2021 911 GT3 | |
2018 Portofino | 2019 911 Speedster | |
2014 California T | 2019 911 Carrera S | |
2009 458 Italia | 2018 718 Cayman GTS | |
2007 430 Scuderia | 2017 Panamera Turbo | |
2003 360 Challenge | 2014 911 Turbo S | |
1987 F40 | 2007 911 GT3 | |
1987 959 | ||
Last edited by IFCA GTDon on Fri May 24, 2024 10:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Build update change
Because several people have been confused or have conflated in some way the correct build requirements between the HLC (Hot Lap Challenge) and the upcoming Season 4 Super Spec series, along with its featurette on Wed nights, we are going to make them almost uniformly the same.
The only difference will be that the HLC cars will use widest stock tires, and Super Spec will use widest race tires. Both will remain stock engine hp, no swapping of restrictors, engines, or rim sizes. Everything else is legal to use for both cars as long as they stay within their Classes, including body kits, down force, wheels, weight, ballast, drivet train swaps, etc.
Currently, given the aforementioned restrictions, the HLC is at Mid Ohio in any S-Class Ferrari until May 30th. And Super Spec is in C-Class with any available GM or FoMoCo cars for the season opener on June 15th @ Catalunya GP. The Wed night Spec Kings has been converted to mirror Super Spec but at half the distance or 30min each Wed @ 8pm CST.
The only difference will be that the HLC cars will use widest stock tires, and Super Spec will use widest race tires. Both will remain stock engine hp, no swapping of restrictors, engines, or rim sizes. Everything else is legal to use for both cars as long as they stay within their Classes, including body kits, down force, wheels, weight, ballast, drivet train swaps, etc.
Currently, given the aforementioned restrictions, the HLC is at Mid Ohio in any S-Class Ferrari until May 30th. And Super Spec is in C-Class with any available GM or FoMoCo cars for the season opener on June 15th @ Catalunya GP. The Wed night Spec Kings has been converted to mirror Super Spec but at half the distance or 30min each Wed @ 8pm CST.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
IFCA GTDon wrote:Because several people have been confused or have conflated in some way the correct build requirements between the HLC (Hot Lap Challenge) and the upcoming Season 4 Super Spec series, along with its featurette on Wed nights, we are going to make them almost uniformly the same.
The only difference will be that the HLC cars will use widest stock tires, and Super Spec will use widest race tires. Both will remain stock engine hp, no swapping of restrictors, engines, or rim sizes. Everything else is legal to use for both cars as long as they stay within their Classes, including body kits, down force, wheels, weight, ballast, drivet train swaps, etc.
Currently, given the aforementioned restrictions, the HLC is at Mid Ohio in any S-Class Ferrari until May 30th. And Super Spec is in C-Class with any available GM or FoMoCo cars for the season opener on June 15th @ Catalunya GP. The Wed night Spec Kings has been converted to mirror Super Spec but at half the distance or 30min each Wed @ 8pm CST.
Reminder for tonight's Spec Kings, we are now going with the Season 4 Super Spec cars from here on out, as a way to showcase the series via the 30min sprint race. In this way those that intend to race in Season 4 Super Spec starting June 15th, will have a good idea of what cars work best each week. Wed nights are open to all whether you plan to run the regular season or not. Super Spec is with race tires, widest width, stock rim size, stock engine hp, and no restrictor plate swaps. Anything else is allowed, using GM or FoMoCo cars in C-Class.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
Attention, we will be postponing the finale this Saturday, until Saturday Aug 3rd.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
IFCA GTDon wrote:
Attention, we will be postponing the finale this Saturday, until Saturday Aug 3rd.
Yes, this pushes Season 5's start date back to Aug 24th giving us a little more of a break between seasons to get prepared.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
A New Dawn of Change?
In our ceaseless quest to innovate and enhance the league racing experience, the IFCA is always operating with an open mind to new ideas. Not every "new idea" that is presented to us is actually new. Most of the suggestions are modified versions of what we have already done since 2005. But we do pay special close attention to those ideas that are truly new or unique. It doesn't mean that they will be used, but it usually means that they will be tested and tried at some point. Often what happens is that something that looks good on paper turns out to be too idealistic and difficult to do in reality. Either way we like to give everyone a heads up well before any sort of change, trial, or test so that the drivers are not blindsided or unaware of what we are doing.
As most here know, the IFCA is unlike any other league in that we are more of a bottom up rather than a top down sim-league. Meaning that we try to measure everything more for the average driver rather than the elite driver. Everything we do is really an effort to try to allow slower drivers to have the most parity with faster drivers and the best opportunity to have the most success. We believe in this goal because we understand that without success very little enjoyment can be experienced. And if you don’t enjoy what you are doing, you will not continue to do it. Why? Because we understand this is a hobby and not a profession. No one is getting paid to be here.
That said, there is a fine line we must respect. It is possible to go too far so that you create an artificial inequality that allows slower drivers to dominate faster drivers. We don’t want to do this either. What we want is the strongest possibility for slower drivers to compete fairly, if, they apply themselves. Continuing from there, we want these same drivers to eventually graduate and join the ranks of the upper-class drivers so we can continue to bring in new drivers in order to build a solid league.
Most Forza leagues cater exclusively to their top-level drivers by default and pay little attention to the average drivers let alone the below average. The few leagues that try to balance this problem out make it nearly impossible for the faster drivers to enjoy the cars. They can still win but it is usually at the expense of the car itself by turning it into a terrible thing to drive. The inevitable result is to force the faster drivers to work much harder than the slower drivers, who were already not working as hard as the faster drivers to begin with. So, there is an inherent inequality to this lopsided approach.
Here at the IFCA it is admittedly a long process to enable slower drivers to compete with faster drivers, and not everyone agrees with it or has the patience for it. Nevertheless, we feel that it is the correct path to follow. In recent seasons we have gone away from this mode more as an experiment than anything. It demonstrated that a wider gap between drivers doesn’t produce closer racing, which is the ultimate goal after all.
Let me explain. Our approach here at the IFCA is to try to give all the drivers the same basic car driving experience while offering a consistent handicap that is measurable. After veering away from this strategy the last couple seasons, it became noticeable that we need to return to it for Season 5. The “gap without cap” (as in handicap) was just too large between our faster drivers and everyone else is why. By going back to our ballast handicap rule, we can tighten the entire grid up without skewing the natural results. Faster drivers will still win, but, just not by as much. Slower drivers may not win, but they will be much closer with better opportunities.
In the future we have plans to try an entirely different format that is not seasonal necessarily. Rather than having a season of 6 weekly races, we might try doing 3 races in 6 weeks. Sort of the opposite of seasonal racing.
Yes, we would continue to use the ballast handicap system and race tires for the compounds. And rather than creating set builds and testing different cars constantly, we would offer a group of cars at a set P.I. with mandatory standard parts such as race tires, no downforce parts, and a roll cage. Then, the rest would be up to you as long as you stay within whatever the P.I. limit is.
Additionally, there would be a new fun way to further equalize everyone too, by borrowing from drag racing. Using something called a “dial-in”. Our traditional practice leaderboard would be converted to a “dial-in” board. Your dial-in is essentially your fastest lap, at which point you are not allowed to exceed during the race. If you do, you have “broken-out” of your established dial-in. In drag racing this means that you are DQ’d, unless your competitor breaks-out by a larger difference.
For our purposes with road racing, we wouldn’t DQ you, we would add half the difference between your total time and the total time of the last place driver in your class. Could be anywhere from 1sec to 3min depending on your finishing order and theirs.
So, for example let’s say your Pro dial-in lap on the board is a lap of 1:45.987, but in the race, you clicked off a best lap of 1:45.986, and actually won the race. This means that you went faster than you were allowed to by .001 and have “broken-out”. And let’s say the slowest Pro driver finished 20sec behind you. We would then divide the 20sec in half, and add 10sec to your total time. Thus, stripping you of the win and possibly knocking you down to last in the Pro finishing order, which would be 3rd place since there are only 3 drivers at the Pro level in any given race. Notice that you are not brought down to say the Copper, Bronze, Silver, or Gold finishing order, but just within your class. That way you are not totally out of the championship points.
So how exactly is your “dial-in” lap time established? We take your absolute best lap and add +0.4sec to your time, so that this then becomes your dial-in time that you can not go faster than.
If you run a best lap of say 1:18.573, your dial-in becomes 1:18.973. This is a real example from the Season 4 Finale with C1 Munz. His best race lap was 1:18.994. Any faster than another 0.021sec and he would have broken-out of his dial-in and would not have won the race. He would have been relegated to 3rd. Had we put this rule in place, he probably would have backed off a little, and would have not ran this close to his dial-in. In turn this would have probably allowed Johnathon to catch up and put more pressure on him.
So why do it this way? It accomplishes a couple of things.
1.) It prevents superfast guys from completely running away with a championship just because they found a superfast build/tune.
2.) It means that there is a limit to how fast you are allowed to go based on your stated dial-in thus eliminating sand bagging.
3.) Because this is sim-road racing and not drag racing, we can force the formula to obey our parameters when it comes to the changing/different track conditions. Usually on race day the track condition is often slower than your best hot lap times. Obviously this would mean that not many would even have to worry about going faster than their dial-in during the race unless, we added .4 tenths to their best time. Then everyone has to be mindful or somewhat careful not to go too fast. Tough to do in the heat of battle with a draft keep in mind. If everyone breaks out of their dial-in, the driver who does it by the least amount wins.
4.) Doing it this way allows everyone from leaderboard hot lappers, to public lobby rats, to league racers, to build the car of their choice in the way they prefer. If you like a high speed hp car or a sticky handling car you can have it your way.
In drag racing you get to set your dial-in to whatever you think is your best time. The closer you can make your car go to your dial-in the more likely you will win without going too fast or too slow. You won’t want your dial-in to be too slow or it will be too easy to “break out”. And you don’t want it to be too fast to the point that your car can’t actually reach your dial-in, because faster cars with closer dial-ins will then smoke you.
In this way drag cars that are vastly different in performance can fairly race against each other. If your opponent has a dial-in that’s 2sec faster than yours, you will get a 2sec head start. If you beat him to the finish line without going under your dial-in, you win!
The same holds true here to a degree. Not that anyone gets a head start, but that everyone will be held responsible to go exactly as fast as they should go, no faster and no slower in effect.
When we marry this to our existing ballast handicaps, things start to get a whole lot closer while amping up the pressure considerably. It will no longer be the case that everyone is just trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Instead, they will be going only as fast as they are allowed to go based on their dial-in. Or put another way, as fast as they said they could go. As a result, they will be paying serious attention to their lap times in an attempt to consistently hit their dial-in time as close as they possibly can, without breaking their dial-in.
The challenge/question will be, did you really run your best lap during practice to set your best dial-in so that you can go as fast as you are capable of, without fear of breaking out?
So, build your car as you wish, the way you like to build your cars. Build them for speed or for handling or a bit of both and have it your way. No need to worry if your car is not competitive. What you worry about most is if your dial-in is accurate so that you can be the most competitive.
No more having to adapt to strange or unfamiliar league builds for the most part. Just do what you always like to do, then set a proper dial-in time, and you are good to go!
When it comes to the ballast handicaps, they will be set based on your dial-in with .4 increments. For example, a Platinum driver (heavy ballast) would need a .4 advantage to fairly compete with a Pro driver. A Gold driver needs .4 to compete with a Platinum driver, and so on down the line.
It turns out that on average there is about a 70lb difference between weight ballasts and this translates to about a .4sec difference per lap time. So, it would work like this, everyone starts in the Pro extra-heavy ballast build to set their dial-in including their +.4 dial in factor. Hypothetically, (and in all likelihood) the fastest top 3 guys will run within .2 of each other, of say 1:20.500 lap, anyone outside of this time by .2 or 1:20.701 would then be assigned as Platinum. Anyone outside of .2 of Platinum (1:20.902) would be Gold, and so on.
Why .2? Because if you are not at least within .2 of your rivals you will not be competitive. They will slowly pull away from you lap after lap.
So then why give slower guys a .4 advantage then? Because this is just the average difference between weights. You could go .6 faster or only .2 faster in the next lower weight class, depending on your ability and car.
But doesn’t this give the slower Platinum guys a much faster car, a car that would be able to unfairly turn faster times than any of the Pro drivers? No, not exactly, because they don’t have the same skill as a Pro level driver and because they will actually have to be more sensitive to their dial-in than a Pro driver. Why? Because they will have a wider range of lap time to play with than a Pro driver. Which means that they will be more vulnerable to breaking their dial-in if they are not careful and run too fast. So in effect, faster doesn't translate into superior.
The Pro level drivers won’t have a handicap that can produce a wide variable lap time of between .2 and .6 faster. They can just go flat out and be much more consistent with their dial-in. Everyone else will have .4 to play with. If the slower drivers go too slow for their dial-in, they will easily risk breaking out during the race. Not good. (also not good for those who do not practice, because they will always go faster in their race). On the other hand, if they can only hit their fastest lap once in a while, it means that their dial-in will be too fast for them and they will be inconsistently slower unable to maximize their performance.
All of this sets up a scenario where the lap times themselves play a strategic role as you can see. Which is to say speed vs consistency and the trade offs of each. If you shoot for super consistency by going at a somewhat slower pace you could handcuff yourself. Shoot for speed alone, or don't do any practice, and you risk breaking out. The choice is yours.
Admittedly this all sounds very complicated (at first) but it is not dependent on the competitors to get right like the relay format is. It’s mostly on the shoulders of the administrator/race director which makes it much more controllable to organize. Drivers really don't have to do anything different. All they have to do is pick a car, build it how they like, and set a good practice lap for their dial-in.
What we would like to do is try it as an experiment for 1 race after Season 5. See how it goes and if it works well, make whatever adjustments and (possibly) try it officially.
Feel free to express your concerns here.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Not all leagues are created equal
Recently I joined an outside league from an invite from the league leader who will remain nameless but will call them "Hay Bales Racing". I joined Hay Bales Racing mainly because they race on late Sunday nights when I'm not doing much. I also joined because I haven't raced in another league outside of the IFCA in a few years now and wanted to see how they conducted things.
The Hay Bales are similar in league size to the IFCA but are only half as old as the IFCA. Their format is sort of an old school power/weight ratio with 100 cars to pick from, a timed qualy, and manual grid/rolling start. Nothing much to complain about and it has worked well for them since they like using AWD and FWD mixed with RWD cars. They only have a Discord, but do have quite a few metrics and far more requirements and hoops to jump through to sign up and race than the IFCA does.
In the first race I gridded 4th in a mid A-Class 1999 Dodge Viper (of course). I was fighting for a podium at the very end but fell 1 lap short on fuel. I simply didn't include the pace lap in my calculation. The race was clean and respectful but with a lot of talking. I enjoyed it even though I thought my car was an under performer compared to the leader's car who was quicker, faster, and better handling. He is probably a better driver too to be fair. He finished at least a half a lap in front of me. No big deal. Sort of expected when you have your first race in a new car build and league honestly.
The start was extremely delayed with all the same issues we have here at the IFCA during the first race of any new season. Just the way it is. In this case we had to wait for a guy that was banned from the league to buy a car, build it correctly, and then qualify. This put us an hour back, and I thought it was not justified or fair to everyone else who had to wait. But the Race Director wanted him on the grid giving us 18 drivers I think.
After the race, the next day, I was on their Discord channel looking to see if the Viper was going to get some help with a BoP since it was mentioned that many of the heavier cars like the Viper were going to be adjusted, and the Race Director ask me how it went and what I thought of the race and format and stuff. I told him it was a good race even though I had to do a second pit. That the guys were pretty clean drivers. I told him that I thought the Viper needed just a little tiny bit more help since I was passed by 4 cars even before we got to turn 1 at the start. But he wasn't having it and felt that the speed of the heavy Viper far outweighed its sluggish acceleration. I explained that it would not hurt the car list if the Viper had a tiny increase. It still wouldn't be the fastest or best car, but at least it wouldn't get run over on the start negating even the pole position should it be on pole. But he protested and said even though no one picked the Viper it doesn't mean that it is a bad car. lol
Then we started to talk about the format and why they do what they do, of which I was curious about, having done the same thing in the past at the IFCA. And right away, all of the sudden, the friendly chat turned into a defensive debate. He took offense to almost every question not understanding that I was just asking out of curiosity and not trying to change anything. You never go to a new league and on the first day start saying, "you guys are doing it all wrong." I'm not that guy, and I hate when new people do that to me. But he seemed to take it that way. You could tell he had had his fill with people like that in the past and put his guard up real quick. lol
I tried to reassure him that I was just casually talking from race director to race director, and wasn't interested in changing anything or logging a complaint as he mistakenly assumed. As we continued to talk it became evident that he wasn't really open to discussing anything and took it quite personally even though it was he who asked me what I thought to begin with. lol
Some have stated that GTDon is always very defensive about formats at the IFCA, trust me, I have nothing on this guy. He was GTDon x10! lol At least I will fully listen to your entire argument before I shut you down. lol I kid. I do listen and I do make changes based on what is said even after making a vigorous defense. Evidence of this is in the many different formats we have had at the IFCA.
Long story short this leader of Hay Bales Racing told me in no uncertain terms that he doesn't care one whit about any of the slower drivers in his league. And that they are slow because they don't want to be fast, they don't seek advice from the faster drivers, and contribute very little to the league. He only wants fast drivers who make an effort, the rest can go stick up their a s s.
This was quite surprising to me since they promote a kind of grass roots type league like the IFCA. I explained that this was where we depart from each other in that the IFCA is very much interested in slower drivers since they are the bulk of the drivers. That the IFCA wants slower drivers so that we can help make them faster drivers and have fuller grids. I said that our formats have always had this in mind especially with our ballast handicaps.
He thought the idea was absolutely crazy and an insult to the faster drivers! lol Why penalize the faster drivers by nerfing them, he exclaimed? I said that depends on what your definition of nerfing is. I don't call it nerfing someone when they still win 100% of the time.
To date we've only had a couple non-Pro drivers even make the podium let alone win a championship. But he insisted that it was a total insult and that he would never race in a format like that.
I tried to explain that the margins are very small which simply allows the drivers to stay closer together for longer periods. That the point of doing it is to promote closer racing for everyone including the faster guys. And that closer racing is more fun, compared to hot lap racing where the leaders vanish after the first 3 turns.
But he wasn't having any of it. lol He said he didn't give a fxxx about the slower guys, that's on them. He said the faster drivers should have the best cars, best builds, and best tunes, and that it would teach the slower guys how to become as fast, creating a healthier league. To which I said, I enjoy racing with slower members and have done so for many years. I said, not everyone has the same skill and can do top 10 times even with expert help. But they can race clean, and by allowing them a slightly lighter car gives them slightly better car control, and the confidence that they are not in an inferior car to the faster drivers. It gives them a small incentive to try harder too knowing they have the equipment to compete.
Meanwhile, the faster drivers in heavier cars linger a little longer with the pack and can showcase their superior skills as drivers over the idea that they simply have a better car/build/tune, and they like that. They like taking the credit for their success based on their skill more than their car.
Needless to say not all leagues are created equal. People have very different opinions on how to create a league, what the best format is, who are your core members to support etc. I bring this to your attention so that everyone can see that the IFCA flawed as it may be, is still a fair bit more open minded and accommodating to the average driver than other leagues of similar size. That we really do stand behind our mission statements:
Mission Statement:
The IFCA exists to provide an equal and fair Forza simulation racing experience for all skill levels.
Vision Statement:
The IFCA goal is to standardize and perfect organized Forza simulation league racing and become the benchmark for others to measure themselves by.
Values Statement:
Our guiding principles are cocooned in integrity and fairness toward all of our drivers be they slow or fast. We are a bottom-up organization that recognizes and supports the grass roots driver’s quest to improve. Everything we do is centered on lifting everyone up to the same level of driver excellence as any of our best drivers.
To do this, the IFCA is committed to creating and adapting strategies that produce ever increasing levels of equality between the cars we use and the drivers who use them. We believe that the closer the racing becomes, the greater opportunity for success is experienced, and with that success, the more fun the racing inevitably becomes.
Stay tuned,
GTDon
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
IFCA Eries and RP Jonathon like this post
Hay Bail Racing
Just a follow up update with my adventure with HBR. The racing has been very good and clean. Some of my influence seems to have taken hold with them in that they have decided that standing starts would be more functional, and that having a practice leaderboard would be fun and beneficial too.
I didn't advocate for these changes, I only offered them as examples of how we do it here at the IFCA. Their leaderboard is not quite the same as ours. It is not as standardized, focusing on your ultimate best lap, but rather, it tends to be a variety of laps under different race conditions. It also has no associated incentives or bonus scale like we have. Part of the reason for this is that they run a lot of rain race combinations with variable weather.
As for the cars, they have a lot to pick from which I always have preferred, but, they have to tailor them to the tracks used, limiting track selection because they use a power to weight ratio formula. On the surface this looks like a great way to balance the cars but I have never been fond of it because it over-handicaps certain cars too much. This requires yet more testing for BoP, the very thing you are trying to reduce.
I much prefer a weight ballast formula so that the power and torque curves remain factory-like, keeping the character of the engines and thus the cars closer to the intended performance feel. Doing it this way lets you use a wider track selection that doesn't have to cater to the limits of certain cars. For example, in their system, cars that are heavy but fast are at a disadvantage vs cars that are light and quick, especially when all the tracks are small rain venues. My Viper really only has a competitive chance on longer bigger tracks, which are not on the schedule.
So rather than using a balance of track types, they shy away from this and try to use smaller slower tracks as a rule. In this way more of their cars can be at play is the thinking. If you don't like the car you picked, pick another is the answer. Unfortunately this tends to produce an upper car list of in-house leaderboard type cars within their own car list and doesn't actually eliminate this problem.
The IFCA system is much more spec-like allowing for the cars to perform like they should with equality, with the added feature of handicapping with the ballast, thus slowing the fast guys down a little and speeding up the slower guys. Track selection can be more varied too.
With their system you will never see a slower guy competing at the front. With our system, you can see a slower guy from time to time run at the front. To me this is the preferred goal, to allow as many people as possible to compete equally at the front. We have been able to quantify what this is. Drivers must be within 0.2sec per lap of each other to be competitive. This is a small margin but a significant one. If you have a formula where the majority of the cars you offer lie outside this margin, the value of having a large car list becomes zero.
So while I think HBR can do a lot more or can do better, it doesn't mean they don't have good or fun racing as it is. They do, it's just that they need to refine what they are doing. Clean up the vast car list, adjust the BoP, and open up the racing to a wider variety or mix of tracks.
The other enjoyable part of participating in another league is not being an organizer. Just being a racer is sooooo much more fun. I come, I race, and I leave.
I didn't advocate for these changes, I only offered them as examples of how we do it here at the IFCA. Their leaderboard is not quite the same as ours. It is not as standardized, focusing on your ultimate best lap, but rather, it tends to be a variety of laps under different race conditions. It also has no associated incentives or bonus scale like we have. Part of the reason for this is that they run a lot of rain race combinations with variable weather.
As for the cars, they have a lot to pick from which I always have preferred, but, they have to tailor them to the tracks used, limiting track selection because they use a power to weight ratio formula. On the surface this looks like a great way to balance the cars but I have never been fond of it because it over-handicaps certain cars too much. This requires yet more testing for BoP, the very thing you are trying to reduce.
I much prefer a weight ballast formula so that the power and torque curves remain factory-like, keeping the character of the engines and thus the cars closer to the intended performance feel. Doing it this way lets you use a wider track selection that doesn't have to cater to the limits of certain cars. For example, in their system, cars that are heavy but fast are at a disadvantage vs cars that are light and quick, especially when all the tracks are small rain venues. My Viper really only has a competitive chance on longer bigger tracks, which are not on the schedule.
So rather than using a balance of track types, they shy away from this and try to use smaller slower tracks as a rule. In this way more of their cars can be at play is the thinking. If you don't like the car you picked, pick another is the answer. Unfortunately this tends to produce an upper car list of in-house leaderboard type cars within their own car list and doesn't actually eliminate this problem.
The IFCA system is much more spec-like allowing for the cars to perform like they should with equality, with the added feature of handicapping with the ballast, thus slowing the fast guys down a little and speeding up the slower guys. Track selection can be more varied too.
With their system you will never see a slower guy competing at the front. With our system, you can see a slower guy from time to time run at the front. To me this is the preferred goal, to allow as many people as possible to compete equally at the front. We have been able to quantify what this is. Drivers must be within 0.2sec per lap of each other to be competitive. This is a small margin but a significant one. If you have a formula where the majority of the cars you offer lie outside this margin, the value of having a large car list becomes zero.
So while I think HBR can do a lot more or can do better, it doesn't mean they don't have good or fun racing as it is. They do, it's just that they need to refine what they are doing. Clean up the vast car list, adjust the BoP, and open up the racing to a wider variety or mix of tracks.
The other enjoyable part of participating in another league is not being an organizer. Just being a racer is sooooo much more fun. I come, I race, and I leave.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Re: IFCA Series News
IFCA GTDon wrote:
In our ceaseless quest to innovate and enhance the league racing experience, the IFCA is always operating with an open mind to new ideas. Not every "new idea" that is presented to us is actually new. Most of the suggestions are modified versions of what we have already done since 2005. But we do pay special close attention to those ideas that are truly new or unique. It doesn't mean that they will be used, but it usually means that they will be tested and tried at some point. Often what happens is that something that looks good on paper turns out to be too idealistic and difficult to do in reality. Either way we like to give everyone a heads up well before any sort of change, trial, or test so that the drivers are not blindsided or unaware of what we are doing.
As most here know, the IFCA is unlike any other league in that we are more of a bottom up rather than a top down sim-league. Meaning that we try to measure everything more for the average driver rather than the elite driver. Everything we do is really an effort to try to allow slower drivers to have the most parity with faster drivers and the best opportunity to have the most success. We believe in this goal because we understand that without success very little enjoyment can be experienced. And if you don’t enjoy what you are doing, you will not continue to do it. Why? Because we understand this is a hobby and not a profession. No one is getting paid to be here.
That said, there is a fine line we must respect. It is possible to go too far so that you create an artificial inequality that allows slower drivers to dominate faster drivers. We don’t want to do this either. What we want is the strongest possibility for slower drivers to compete fairly, if, they apply themselves. Continuing from there, we want these same drivers to eventually graduate and join the ranks of the upper-class drivers so we can continue to bring in new drivers in order to build a solid league.
Most Forza leagues cater exclusively to their top-level drivers by default and pay little attention to the average drivers let alone the below average. The few leagues that try to balance this problem out make it nearly impossible for the faster drivers to enjoy the cars. They can still win but it is usually at the expense of the car itself by turning it into a terrible thing to drive. The inevitable result is to force the faster drivers to work much harder than the slower drivers, who were already not working as hard as the faster drivers to begin with. So, there is an inherent inequality to this lopsided approach.
Here at the IFCA it is admittedly a long process to enable slower drivers to compete with faster drivers, and not everyone agrees with it or has the patience for it. Nevertheless, we feel that it is the correct path to follow. In recent seasons we have gone away from this mode more as an experiment than anything. It demonstrated that a wider gap between drivers doesn’t produce closer racing, which is the ultimate goal after all.
Let me explain. Our approach here at the IFCA is to try to give all the drivers the same basic car driving experience while offering a consistent handicap that is measurable. After veering away from this strategy the last couple seasons, it became noticeable that we need to return to it for Season 5. The “gap without cap” (as in handicap) was just too large between our faster drivers and everyone else is why. By going back to our ballast handicap rule, we can tighten the entire grid up without skewing the natural results. Faster drivers will still win, but, just not by as much. Slower drivers may not win, but they will be much closer with better opportunities.
In the future we have plans to try an entirely different format that is not seasonal necessarily. Rather than having a season of 6 weekly races, we might try doing 3 races in 6 weeks. Sort of the opposite of seasonal racing.
Yes, we would continue to use the ballast handicap system and race tires for the compounds. And rather than creating set builds and testing different cars constantly, we would offer a group of cars at a set P.I. with mandatory standard parts such as race tires, no downforce parts, and a roll cage. Then, the rest would be up to you as long as you stay within whatever the P.I. limit is.
Additionally, there would be a new fun way to further equalize everyone too, by borrowing from drag racing. Using something called a “dial-in”. Our traditional practice leaderboard would be converted to a “dial-in” board. Your dial-in is essentially your fastest lap, at which point you are not allowed to exceed during the race. If you do, you have “broken-out” of your established dial-in. In drag racing this means that you are DQ’d, unless your competitor breaks-out by a larger difference.
For our purposes with road racing, we wouldn’t DQ you, we would add half the difference between your total time and the total time of the last place driver in your class. Could be anywhere from 1sec to 3min depending on your finishing order and theirs.
So, for example let’s say your Pro dial-in lap on the board is a lap of 1:45.987, but in the race, you clicked off a best lap of 1:45.986, and actually won the race. This means that you went faster than you were allowed to by .001 and have “broken-out”. And let’s say the slowest Pro driver finished 20sec behind you. We would then divide the 20sec in half, and add 10sec to your total time. Thus, stripping you of the win and possibly knocking you down to last in the Pro finishing order, which would be 3rd place since there are only 3 drivers at the Pro level in any given race. Notice that you are not brought down to say the Copper, Bronze, Silver, or Gold finishing order, but just within your class. That way you are not totally out of the championship points.
So how exactly is your “dial-in” lap time established? We take your absolute best lap and add +0.4sec to your time, so that this then becomes your dial-in time that you can not go faster than.
If you run a best lap of say 1:18.573, your dial-in becomes 1:18.973. This is a real example from the Season 4 Finale with C1 Munz. His best race lap was 1:18.994. Any faster than another 0.021sec and he would have broken-out of his dial-in and would not have won the race. He would have been relegated to 3rd. Had we put this rule in place, he probably would have backed off a little, and would have not ran this close to his dial-in. In turn this would have probably allowed Johnathon to catch up and put more pressure on him.
So why do it this way? It accomplishes a couple of things.
1.) It prevents superfast guys from completely running away with a championship just because they found a superfast build/tune.
2.) It means that there is a limit to how fast you are allowed to go based on your stated dial-in thus eliminating sand bagging.
3.) Because this is sim-road racing and not drag racing, we can force the formula to obey our parameters when it comes to the changing/different track conditions. Usually on race day the track condition is often slower than your best hot lap times. Obviously this would mean that not many would even have to worry about going faster than their dial-in during the race unless, we added .4 tenths to their best time. Then everyone has to be mindful or somewhat careful not to go too fast. Tough to do in the heat of battle with a draft keep in mind. If everyone breaks out of their dial-in, the driver who does it by the least amount wins.
4.) Doing it this way allows everyone from leaderboard hot lappers, to public lobby rats, to league racers, to build the car of their choice in the way they prefer. If you like a high speed hp car or a sticky handling car you can have it your way.
In drag racing you get to set your dial-in to whatever you think is your best time. The closer you can make your car go to your dial-in the more likely you will win without going too fast or too slow. You won’t want your dial-in to be too slow or it will be too easy to “break out”. And you don’t want it to be too fast to the point that your car can’t actually reach your dial-in, because faster cars with closer dial-ins will then smoke you.
In this way drag cars that are vastly different in performance can fairly race against each other. If your opponent has a dial-in that’s 2sec faster than yours, you will get a 2sec head start. If you beat him to the finish line without going under your dial-in, you win!
The same holds true here to a degree. Not that anyone gets a head start, but that everyone will be held responsible to go exactly as fast as they should go, no faster and no slower in effect.
When we marry this to our existing ballast handicaps, things start to get a whole lot closer while amping up the pressure considerably. It will no longer be the case that everyone is just trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Instead, they will be going only as fast as they are allowed to go based on their dial-in. Or put another way, as fast as they said they could go. As a result, they will be paying serious attention to their lap times in an attempt to consistently hit their dial-in time as close as they possibly can, without breaking their dial-in.
The challenge/question will be, did you really run your best lap during practice to set your best dial-in so that you can go as fast as you are capable of, without fear of breaking out?
So, build your car as you wish, the way you like to build your cars. Build them for speed or for handling or a bit of both and have it your way. No need to worry if your car is not competitive. What you worry about most is if your dial-in is accurate so that you can be the most competitive.
No more having to adapt to strange or unfamiliar league builds for the most part. Just do what you always like to do, then set a proper dial-in time, and you are good to go!
When it comes to the ballast handicaps, they will be set based on your dial-in with .4 increments. For example, a Platinum driver (heavy ballast) would need a .4 advantage to fairly compete with a Pro driver. A Gold driver needs .4 to compete with a Platinum driver, and so on down the line.
It turns out that on average there is about a 70lb difference between weight ballasts and this translates to about a .4sec difference per lap time. So, it would work like this, everyone starts in the Pro extra-heavy ballast build to set their dial-in including their +.4 dial in factor. Hypothetically, (and in all likelihood) the fastest top 3 guys will run within .2 of each other, of say 1:20.500 lap, anyone outside of this time by .2 or 1:20.701 would then be assigned as Platinum. Anyone outside of .2 of Platinum (1:20.902) would be Gold, and so on.
Why .2? Because if you are not at least within .2 of your rivals you will not be competitive. They will slowly pull away from you lap after lap.
So then why give slower guys a .4 advantage then? Because this is just the average difference between weights. You could go .6 faster or only .2 faster in the next lower weight class, depending on your ability and car.
But doesn’t this give the slower Platinum guys a much faster car, a car that would be able to unfairly turn faster times than any of the Pro drivers? No, not exactly, because they don’t have the same skill as a Pro level driver and because they will actually have to be more sensitive to their dial-in than a Pro driver. Why? Because they will have a wider range of lap time to play with than a Pro driver. Which means that they will be more vulnerable to breaking their dial-in if they are not careful and run too fast. So in effect, faster doesn't translate into superior.
The Pro level drivers won’t have a handicap that can produce a wide variable lap time of between .2 and .6 faster. They can just go flat out and be much more consistent with their dial-in. Everyone else will have .4 to play with. If the slower drivers go too slow for their dial-in, they will easily risk breaking out during the race. Not good. (also not good for those who do not practice, because they will always go faster in their race). On the other hand, if they can only hit their fastest lap once in a while, it means that their dial-in will be too fast for them and they will be inconsistently slower unable to maximize their performance.
All of this sets up a scenario where the lap times themselves play a strategic role as you can see. Which is to say speed vs consistency and the trade offs of each. If you shoot for super consistency by going at a somewhat slower pace you could handcuff yourself. Shoot for speed alone, or don't do any practice, and you risk breaking out. The choice is yours.
Admittedly this all sounds very complicated (at first) but it is not dependent on the competitors to get right like the relay format is. It’s mostly on the shoulders of the administrator/race director which makes it much more controllable to organize. Drivers really don't have to do anything different. All they have to do is pick a car, build it how they like, and set a good practice lap for their dial-in.
What we would like to do is try it as an experiment for 1 race after Season 5. See how it goes and if it works well, make whatever adjustments and (possibly) try it officially.
Feel free to express your concerns here.
After Season 5, (ending Oct 5th Sebring) we are going to have a pilot program for 3 races to see how this might work.
The format package will be:
Any car
A-Class
race slicks any width
4lap qualy
standing start
1 pit
dial-in factor of +0.4sec.
To qualify you'll need to post a lap by Friday night. Whatever car you post as your dial-in-car is the car you must race on Saturdays. (We will not make use of ballast yet.)
So, pick whatever favorite car you like, build it no higher than A700 with race slicks any width. You can take a C-Class car and build it up or even an S-Class car and build it down. You can use a race car, street car, or anything in-between. You can use FWD, RWD, AWD, too. You can use turbos, super chargers, engine swaps, drivetrain swaps, wide body kits, larger wheels, downforce, whatever you like. It's entirely up to you and what you think you can drive consistently best.
Whatever your fastest time is we will then add +0.4sec to it, and that will be your official dial-in time, i.e., the time you can not exceed during the race. So the key is, run a very fast practice lap so you can go as fast as your car can go during the race, without breaking out of your dial-in time, which will always be +0.4sec slower than your actual best practice lap time.
What does this mean exactly? It means that if you are lazy or don't bother to put much effort into your practice lap and then we add +0.4sec to it, you will be at serious risk of going faster than your dial-in on race day.
On the other hand, if you lay down a really fast practice time for yourself and we add the +0.4sec to it for your dial-in, your risk of breaking out of your dial-in is much less during the race. Not zero chance, but less. This means that you will be a lot more free to run as hard as you like without too much worry of breaking out, because, you already know your limits with your car.
*Everyone will still have to be mindful of their race lap times during the race, even the fast guys. Typically even a fast guy can usually match his practice lap time and sometimes beat it in the race, but with the additional +0.4sec, it does mean that he will be well within reach of going faster than he should. As for the slower guys, their chances of breaking out are higher because they are less consistent and run fewer practice laps. So, they will have to step up their practice game or risk breaking out more often.
In the end this system rewards effort and punishes the lazy. Imagine a guy who only ran a few laps during the week and has a mediocre practice lap time, and then we make his time even slower by adding +0.4sec for his dial-in, and then come race day he puts in his warmup laps and discovers he is running way faster than his dial-in! Uh oh! Or he discovers this during the 30lap race! He sees that he is easily able to run a full second faster than his dial-in! Oh no! That means he is forced to back off and run slower than he is actually capable of, all because he didn't put in a good practice time. Tsk tsk.
Obviously, because everyone will be running their best practice laps under ideal track conditions, the race itself will also be under ideal track conditions.
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Is this the end?
Well, that all depends. It depends on when Assetto Corsa EVO arrives. It's due to release in January on PC. The console version comes later. How much later no one knows. It will be at that time that the IFCA will shift its focus from Forza to ACE. In effect ACE will then become our primary sim, and FM will become secondary. As such we will likely need someone to step up and be our Forza Manager. Someone who is experienced and good at organizing, recruiting, and even designing formats. This might take more than one person. It may take a club.
You may ask why this would be? The answer is that Eries and myself, and anyone who uses a wheel will be going with ACE. Thus leaving an organizational vacancy for FM open. Obviously this may mean that the Pirelli World Endurance Nov 23rd Grand Oak Club will be the last IFCA Forza series the founders will partake in. This series ends on Jan 4th at Daytona at about the time ACE is released. It is at that time that we would like to hand off any further FM series to the new manager.
If you are one such brave soul who is looking for something extra to do in the way of series organizing, this will be a perfect time for you to step up. Please contact IFCA GTDon with your intent.
We say 'perfect time' because after 18+ years of various formats we think that the PWE is one of the best for a new organizer to proceed with. It's very labor light and highly automated. It eliminates sandbagging, while at the same time allows open-builds with equality. With the delayed starts and P.I. handicaps it gives the slower drivers a real chance to improve and podium in a car of their choosing. And there is no need for hours and hours of car testing by the organizers. All one needs is a spreadsheet. So, effectively we would be handing you a turn-key program to carry-on with Forza as you see fit.
Some cautionary notes to those interested in league organizing. After my recent short stint with Grass Roots Racing, some of the contrasts were dramatic between GRR and the IFCA. Some of the takeaways were, don't build a series where you as the leader are placed in the best position to win every season. Don't nerf a car just because it is slightly faster than your own. And don't pick tracks that are best suited for your car.
As a league leader you are by default relinquishing some of your competitive desires for the sake of fair and fun racing. You do this because even when you do do this, other drivers will still accuse you of having an unfair advantage. It's just human nature. People will always think the game is rigged by the leaders even when it is not. So, a good leader needs to make it plain and obvious that if anything he is at a slight disadvantage, or it will appear to fulfill the accusations that he is manipulating things to win. You know, nerfing the opponents car, picking the fastest known car, favoring your best tracks, etc. etc.
Try to keep things civil and professional at all times too. Don't be thin skinned toward criticism. Welcome new ideas and explore them even when you think they are not a good fit. Don't ask for feedback and then attack the person for being honest. lol Be objective in your rulings, never throw the book at anyone, and always give the offenders the benefit of the doubt.
Do these things and people will at the very least respect you and your efforts. As an organizer you won't have as much time to practice as everyone else, but this is not a justification to always use the best cars and schedule your favorite tracks. As an organizer and driver your goal is not to win the championship, your goal is to make the series as fair and fun as possible for all skill levels. Then if you do win its a bonus, a real accolade, because everyone knows at that point you had no advantages over anyone else, and in fact had more challenges.
So, let's knock this season out one last time. It promises to be one of the best in IFCA history. One last chance to grab some IFCA gold. And let me know if you are interested in continuing the IFCA Forza legacy.
Many thanks,
IFCA GTDon
_________________
"Piggy" aka "The Pig"
IFCA GTDon- IFCA LICENSE: ELITE
-
Posts : 14794
Local : Minnesota, USA
Registration date : 2007-04-04
Forza Profile
XBL Gamertag: GTDon2
IFCA Car #: 4
Infractions: 0 out of 3,000,000,000
Page 32 of 32 • 1 ... 17 ... 30, 31, 32
Similar topics
» IFCA Radio News (Listen to All Podcasts Here)
» IFCA Team Meeting Notes and News
» The Admin's Blog - Click here for '14 IFCA News & Opinions
» Series 2 IFCA SuperTuner Sign ups.
» IFCA Radio News Season 2 - 2014 Season Podcasts
» IFCA Team Meeting Notes and News
» The Admin's Blog - Click here for '14 IFCA News & Opinions
» Series 2 IFCA SuperTuner Sign ups.
» IFCA Radio News Season 2 - 2014 Season Podcasts
Page 32 of 32
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum