Series Race Talk

Sounds like everyone is in high anticipation of getting this series started. A lot of people secretly messaging, "GT, can you shoot me the build on such and such car when you get done with your testing?" All in good time my friends.

It has taken about 2 weeks of testing every day to try to get these cars not just equal, but at about the right performance level too. You don't want them too fast and hard to handle, and you don't want them too slow either.

After a lot of testing a juggling the numbers I think I've found the correct range for both classes that best emulates the real cars level of performance. Technically they are probably just a little faster than the real cars is sort of my guess. They have close to the same weights, but might have a little more horsepower here and there especially in the ST Class. In fact, in season 2 we will get a chance to see how they compare when both series (real and simlulated) will go to Road Atlanta the same week! The real series will be on Saturday April 20th, and we will be there the following Monday April 22nd. Cool huh?

The FWD cars in ST are right at the limit of being almost too powerful to be fun. Any more power, and they would be a real pain. As it stands, the FWD cars are very fun because they perfectly match their handling to their power, which is close to 300hp. That's a lot of power for a small 4cylinder car with front wheel drive. They also have what I think is about the right speed in relative comparison to the upper class GS cars. They are 2-3sec slower, and about 20mph less top speed.

The AWD cars of both classes have had special attention paid to them because they tend to be the most difficult to dial in and make equal. You have to be extra hard on the AWD cars to get the most out of them because they can do things the other drive trains can't at the 10/10ths level.

These will be the most equal performing group of cars in any series I've put together. Every car runs within 0.10 of each other depending on the track. Every car runs within 3-4mph top speed of each other too.

I have to do 1 more shake down test to double check that the cars are equal and then I will begin to post the builds. This last test is done as a review because I'm slightly faster with these cars now than when I started two weeks ago. So I have to make sure I'm getting the most I can out of each car with my personal improvement. Doesn't mean that some fast guy can't exploit a car and blow the field away, just means that you'll probably have to be a really fast guy to do that. Anyone about the rating of 2300+ could do this. This is why we will make some adjustments for season two, some fast guy will always find the one car that has just a little too much get up and go it seems. But it won't be easy for them (the fast guys), because all of the cars have very nearly the same top speed, and no amount of fancy tuning will change that fact.

I am definitely interested in seeing what Audi have to offer in this series. Can't wait to get involved with this one. It was kind of the dream I had when designing the TCC which is now defunct. I wanted to find a way to have RWD FWD and AWD all in the same race but couldn't get it just right and another series I was planning to do emulating the WEC using the Honda and Mazda Lolas, Audi R18s and Puegot 908s, I just couldn't get them quite right.... So take your time with this, I really want another big series like the World Cup was last year. And can you secretly send me some builds lol

I'm a huge fan of this series in real life, so being able to participate in this through "virtual" means has got me excited. I have refrained from using the new Boss 302 since purchasing the pack that contained it...waiting for the right moment. It would seem that moment has arrived in the form of this series. Looking forward to it, and certainly appreciate the work involved to implement it. Thanks Don!

Some have asked what the deal is with some of the liveries that don't appear to be quite right. It's true, some of the liveries are for different cars than can be supplied in the game, and some liveries are from adjacent or similar series to the "Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge." Don't let this bother you, the liveries are examples of what is expected. You should have authentic liveries whenever possible. The pictures are there for you to copy in case you can't find a livery.

There are a few minor compromises that we've had to make with some of the cars and the correct paints. No worries. For example we opted to use the Nissan Sentra in place of the Nissan Ultima from the real series. (There is no Ultima in FM4). We've allowed nearly all the late model Mustangs going back to the 2005 GT to be represented too since Mustang has been such a regular in the series and we don't actually have one of the correct models. The Mercedes 300 is supposed to be a 4-door, but we are using a 2-door. Many of the car years are not exactly right too. All these things are minor compromises. The main thing is that we have nearly all the cars with a couple extra for good measure.

When it comes to the teams and their series points there are a couple issues that were brought up. One is, people really want to have the team option, but it has to be fair in the points structure. It can't be based only on the fastest guys result or it's not a team effort. And it can't easily be a flat average of the two drivers because it would be impossible for a team to take first place. My solution is this: As long as a team finishes in tandem, i.e., 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 etc., they will earn the higher place. A 1-2 finish, earns a win. A 2-3 finish earns 2nd. A 3-4 finish earns 3rd and so on. If team drivers do not finish together but have a gapped finish of 1-8, or 3-10, or 6-12 for example, then their finishing order will be averaged, i.e., added together and divided by 2. 1+8=9/2=4.5 for example.

Lobby assignments are initially sorted by IFCA ratings from the most current published list for the first race. This is to insure that those in a lobby are competing with drivers of their own skill level for the most part. Doesn't mean that you can't have a low rated or a high rated driver above or below the average rating of a lobby.

After the first race, lobby assignment will be guided by the results. Those that did well will be grouped together for race 2 in the case of multiple lobbies before qualifying. All of this is done because we want to have the most competitive rooms. Since the format is total time it's important that we try to eliminate rooms that would allow a clear track runaway.

Everyone will tend to qualify and race with the same group each week. We will not be re-assigning drivers after qualifying. It is assumed that you are already with drivers of your own skill level through the IFCA ratings. Qualifying in such a group should produce competitive times.

Teams will be grid sorted by the highest rating of the two drivers before qualifying. The team member with the fastest qualifying time dictates grid position for the team.

What if there is a tie in series points between a team position and a single? The 2 team members ratings will be averaged, and if it is higher than the single they are tied with, they will get the position points.

It its this reason why I am a free agent, 1) i am getting back into it after being away for awhile and 2) i dont think there was a sure fire way to include team members get the absolute most fair result in the points race unless we have a team structure and a singles structure but there would be no to that as it would just confuse the whole mess. I think Don's solution will work best however I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of singles out there. No disrespect to AAR but i would rather run solo in this series just so I can do my best to represent the club and not hold us back if something such as a bad result does come up.

See you on the track boys

Okay, The 14 GS car builds are equalized to the best of my limited time and ability, and are now posted. Doesn't mean they are perfectly equal understand, but, they have been through a 3 phase testing process.

1st was to discover where on the P.I. scale they should belong in relation to each other and each class so the cars would be at their best while still resembling the performance of the real series.

Phase 2 was initial testing of some 40 cars in total. Each car was driven an average of 7 laps at Sunset Club Reverse for a total estimated lap count North of 250 laps. This track was picked for several reasons. It's a fast lap with a short time enabling me to quickly see where a car was at on lap times. Because the cars have no downforce it was important to monitor what kind of top speed each car was getting, and with the long straight it was easy to control top speeds. Because they have no downforce, they wouldn't need a lot of curves to see how well they handled, and there are just enough curves to do this at the Club circuit. Lastly, the tester (that's me) is very familiar with this simple track allowing for greater consistancy across the varied drive trains.

Phase 3: Once the cars were sorted by lap times, it was time to go back and see if I could discover unequal cars because of gained driving skill or poor testing. This required another 250 laps approximately. This final fine tuning phase showed that about 40% of the cars were a little off, and about 10% of the cars were way off the mark.

Reference information: Sunset Club Reverse is the 4th race in the first season. All of the GS cars were tested to run at least a 1:01.9. The ST cars, a 1:04.7. Doesn't mean they can't go faster, they can and will. It means that with a handful of laps, a base tune, and an above average driver, each car can and will do at least these lap times. You'll want to compare your progress with these tested times. I know that had I spent 250 laps on any one of these cars with a more detailed tune I could go faster.

Overall I'd say the cars are about the best handling non-downforce cars I've ever driven, and really do give you a great sense for the style and character of what these cars are like compared to the real cars. I hope everyone enjoys driving them as much as I did testing them. I also hope that everyone sees that it does take a lot of effort to try to create a good series with good balanced cars.

We will weed through the cars after each season and make adjustments as needed just like the real series does. No matter how equal you try to get them, there are always a few standouts. Only after several seasons do you get really precise equality.

I will have the rest of the ST cars up today.

P.S. These builds are not to be altered in any way.

Really wanted to do this one as it looks like a good one, unfortunately it clashes with the VM Stock Hatch series

Okay, mission accomplished, all the cars for the first season have been posted. The builds will not change until season 2. Although these might be the most equalized cars of any series in the entire Forza world to date, it doesn't mean they are perfect. We will make small adjustments after each season.

The feedback has been highly favorable from all driver skill levels. Average drivers are amazed at the equality of the cars. Above average drivers are very satisfied. The elite divers are only mildly impressed, but you can't get much more than that from them anyway.

Having done all the testing of these 36 cars by myself you'd think I would know which cars are the fastest, but I don't. I will run each of these cars to within 1/10th of each other on any given track. Some cars do have a slightly higher top speed, but this is no indication of potential lap time.

Unlike some of the other leagues who use a variety of methods to equalize car builds besides actually driving them, here at the IFCA we don't take the easy way out. We know our drivers appreciate the effort that goes into rigorous testing of the cars. They know that there is one place they can count on to , "get it right." They know that the organizers at the IFCA care about fair and fun racing as much as they do, and will always do their level best to make this happen. Our drivers know we won't take any shortcuts just to put a series together either. It is this dedication to detailed testing that has always placed the IFCA events on a higher level in the eyes of many a league racing veteran. So feel free to pick your favorite car without the fear that your car can't compete with the rest, and have a fun season.

Stop the presses! Due to some serious concern over the Challenger by more than a few people we will change the build before the start of the season. It was judged not to be too fast, but have too much handling, and will get a reduction in tire width. Any other cars that we might want to "adjust" will happen after the first season and before the second season.

Another important issue is the use of TCS. It was correctly pointed out that TCS is not allowed in the real series so why should it be here? It's a fair point. Several people have also stated that allowing TCS creates a track hazard with these non-aero cars especially. It is suggested that having a mix of TCS drivers with non-TCS drivers can cause unwanted contact because not all the cars are behaving the same way or are being driven with the same physics. It means that 2 identical cars can enter or exit a corner in very differrent ways. These inconsistent differences take away from the predictability of the entire field of cars which can cause more crashes is the worry. It may even give certain TCS drivers an advantage. To avoid all this, we will not allow TCS.

On sort of a related note, please understand that any good series is an evolving event. We never get it quite right by the first round or even the first season. It takes a lot of time to just get things in the ballpark, and from there you get to adjust everything as needed. This series attempts to replicate the real one in a general sense. There are limits within the game and my time that prevents a 100% replication which was never the goal of doing this. I want the series to use the same cars equally built to about the same performance so that they aren't over the top beasts, but still retain the driveability and character of the real cars. With all of your help we can make this a very fair and fun series that just gets better with time. So please continue to share any concerns you have for the future of this event.

Thanks,

GTDon

Anyone do any laps at Motegi yet?

LMR Scantraxx wrote:Anyone do any laps at Motegi yet?

Indeed, GS is running mostly in the 2:06s-5s, ST in the 2:10s-9s

AAR GTDon wrote:

LMR Scantraxx wrote:Anyone do any laps at Motegi yet?

Indeed, GS is running mostly in the 2:06s-5s, ST in the 2:10s-9s

interesting... thank you

about the paints... if I buy one from the store does it still have to have my number on it?

LMR Scantraxx wrote:about the paints... if I buy one from the store does it still have to have my number on it?

no, we realize that a lot of the cool paints are locked designs. The only time we get hrdcore about your IFCA # is during the end of the year Championships in Sept.

The start time came to note last night. It will be challenging for an employed, west coast American competitor to attend. Midnight in the British Isles is better than 2am.
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With default tunes on board, we had 4 of us go through five or six tracks last night in our chosen cars they were well matched, as advertised.

Yeah the West is short changed this time, but the UK time is 12:00 GMT

thats a badass paintjob, to bad its not official CTSCC paint

That's true, it is not an approved livery from the Continental series.

AAR GTDon wrote:That's true, it is not an approved livery from the Continental series.

^^......

haha Oneshot would you be willing to sell it unlocked, i like that one...

YEAH THE TIME WILL BE TOUGH TO MAKE IT EVERY TIME BUT LOOKING AT THE GUYS RUNNING IN THIS SERIES.....IT IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF FUN AND I DON'T PLAN ON MISSING IT.

I just read the update on the grid groupings and I hope this is not too critical but I have a few gripes. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just want to know the correct procedure that will be followed.
Let me get this right... Cars will be penalized time off the start for AWD and gain time for FWD. On top of that, if you are battling with a competitor and you come up on an ST car, that guy can't move, if he does, he will be penalized? Also if the cars fighting for position get into each other while overtaking the slower car one will be penalized and the other will actually gain time? i'm kinda confused on this. Also if you get wrecked or knocked off course in the A room, you will lose to the guy who didn't in the B room. I like the idea of the duel room but I think there are a few flaws in the system. Take for example a newcomer such as LMR Scantraxx ( This is just an example, I have never raced him and have no clue how fast he is) coming in being unrated. He will start at the rear of the GS field placing him in the second lobby. Ok well what if he is a fast guy who shouldn't necessarily be in the second lobby? He will have an open track to "hotlap" while the A room will be battling it out. Someone like that would claim a quick victory in a 4 week series and also have a way better shot at grabbing the fast lap bonus via an open track. Not to stir up the hornets nest but if we are qualifying anyway, why would we not have lobbies based on qualifying times and not "GP Points"? I'm just kinda baffled...

i think you are over thinking it...

The grid each race will be determined by the overall rating of the driver so there is potential to moving between lobby A and B as the series go on.

As for the cars getting penalized for being AWD or awarded time for being FWD that is because each car launches differently and it will serve as an equalizer to help get things going. After that the time that is gained or loss do to driver skill/error will be on an even playing field and be as if all cars were the same.

The rule saying that ST cars DO NOT get out of the way for any reason is actually used in almost every multiclass/multichassis series in the world. This ensures that unexpected movements or confusion does not take place in the event that the faster GS class (or faster class period) catches up to the slower ST class

If two GS cars were to come up on 1 ST car one person might lose time and one person might get in the clear, this is part of the appeal and challenge of multiclass racing and no one will be penalized for having to wait for the slower car, you might just have to be patient and not push the issue until it is safe to make a pass

The idea of the rule is to put all of the responsibility on the higher accelerating/speed class to eliminate any stressful decision making from both classes and leave the sole responsibility on the GS class

As for being knocked off the road in lobby A vs lobby B it can happen no matter who you are with whether it be a seasoned veteran or a greenhorn making the first debut of his career so take care to watch for cars that are going out of control or appear to be off the pace. This happens in real life as well.

As for your friend scan, i am pretty sure there is a 5 lap qualifier at the beginning of every race so he won't necessarily start in the back of his class OR the field for that matter. So if he is that fast that he is just hot lapping he will get the necessary ratings points to make it into the higher lobby in the next race of the season. Demotions and Promotions are designed into the system to keep skill levels pretty close in each lobby.

I think reading the rules a little more slowly and carefully will clear things up, im not trying to be rude but it is all spelled out. Hope this helps, and this is just what i got out of talking to Don or reading the rules in the series info page.