Log a Request for Investigation

Critical Notice: No incident will be scrutinized if it has not been logged and raised here, due to the shear administration and time required, any verbal incident notice will NOT be scrutinized if it has not formally been logged here as well. The marshals will view this thread for any incidents and then view the replay, delivering their verdict to either GTDon2 or ZAR Eries.

Here you can log an incident into on track incidents for past races, you have to log the request before Tuesday 12pm following the race.

You can either log the request here, or send GTDon2 a message on Xbox to investigate an Incident.

What is required?

Firstly, we want everyone who may have been involved in an incident to consult with their team leader before logging an investigation.  Get with your team leader first and go over the details.  Your team leader, once informed, will then confer with the team leader or leaders of the other drivers involved as a means to diffuse and mitigate the problem as much as possible before mediation is conducted.  If no resolution is achieved between team leaders or if it becomes clear a penalty or penalties should be issued, then the team leader is authorized to log the investigation or have the injured driver log it.  ZAR Eries and WhiskeySix1 will then investigate and recommend what they think the penalty should be.  Then GTDon will issue the actual penalty or penalties based on the recommendation.



1. My gamertag
2. Race Date, Track & Event
3. Lap
4. Incident involving, racers gamertags
5. Explanation of your point of view regarding the incident

Example:

1. ZAR Eries
   
2. Monza - 17th September 2022 - Forza Masters Season 16
   
3. Lap 4
   
4. Contact between ZAR Eries and GTDon2
   
5. Exiting corner 3, GTDon2 made contact with me, causing me to go off the track. He gained a position, I went off the track and he didn't wait as required.
   

IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU NEVER GET PERSONAL IN LOGGING REQUESTS FOR INVESTIGATION, KEEP IT 100% ABOVE BOARD AND PROFESSIONAL AT ALL TIMES

Who are they?

aar oneshot
6/3/23,hock in rain, Season 19
lap5
oneshot;sox;2 new guys;nova...
in hairpin new guy breaks hard sox's oneshot ricky? nova all accordion hit bumbers. all is good no one is harmed.all cars begin to roll and new guy break checks sox's and i bump sox's into a spin. i check up and move left to wait. the time it takes sox's to get going is way to long. so i watch replay. it shows nova dive bombing the corner to exploit the situation. making a bad deal way worse. why cant sox move you ask. because nova is so far in the grass cutting the corner he has sox's pinned to the wall and he cant back up yet, until nova is gone. im not against nova in anyway, he just happen to be the guy doing it. we all try to get as much as we can when someone is crashing. we dont call cautions so there should be some rule /change in how this is handled in future

jason\"1shot" wrote:aar oneshot
6/3/23,hock in rain, Season 19
lap5
oneshot;sox;2 new guys;nova...
in hairpin new guy breaks hard sox's oneshot ricky? nova all accordion hit bumbers. all is good no one is harmed.all cars begin to roll and new guy break checks sox's and i bump sox's into a spin. i check up and move left to wait. the time it takes sox's to get going is way to long. so i watch replay. it shows nova dive bombing the corner to exploit the situation. making a bad deal way worse. why cant sox move you ask. because nova is so far in the grass cutting the corner he has sox's pinned to the wall and he cant back up yet, until nova is gone. im not against nova in anyway, he just happen to be the guy doing it. we all try to get as much as we can when someone is crashing. we dont call cautions so there should be some rule /change in how this is handled in future

We are reviewing this incident....

my thing is how long do you wait for the spun out car to get going, not more penalties.

Upon other investigation on cars not observing the required gap, max grid penalty will be only 1 seeing no one gained an unfair advantage post the start line. Therefore only a severity 1 shall be enforced, which is the lowest tier for those infrigements.

Oneshot we reviewed and came to the same outcome, Don will share the verdict.

jason\"1shot" wrote:aar oneshot
6/3/23,hock in rain, Season 19
lap5
oneshot;sox;2 new guys;nova...
in hairpin new guy breaks hard sox's oneshot ricky? nova all accordion hit bumbers. all is good no one is harmed.all cars begin to roll and new guy break checks sox's and i bump sox's into a spin. i check up and move left to wait. the time it takes sox's to get going is way to long. so i watch replay. it shows nova dive bombing the corner to exploit the situation. making a bad deal way worse. why cant sox move you ask. because nova is so far in the grass cutting the corner he has sox's pinned to the wall and he cant back up yet, until nova is gone. im not against nova in anyway, he just happen to be the guy doing it. we all try to get as much as we can when someone is crashing. we dont call cautions so there should be some rule /change in how this is handled in future

The agreed to conclusion arrived at is that this incident was a racing incident.  Not to say that there wasn't some blame to spread around exactly, only that there wasn't enough specific blame to lay upon any one driver.  The lesson to be learned from this is 1.) Be aware of who it is you are driving close to.  A lower skilled slower driver is someone you will want to be more cautious with when you are in close proximity.  They are going to brake too early, or too late, or too long typically.  It's best not to ride up on them and better to give them a lot of room when passing them. 2.) If you have any doubts in your mind that you are not at fault for contact which resulted in someone going off the track, do as OneShot did do, and wait for them to recover.  If you don't, the ruling could go against you.  In this case had OneShot left, he would not have been penalized it turns out.  But this isn't always the case.

Overall it appeared everyone was just trying to make some lemonade out of some lemons.  We could not detect any unsportsmanlike driving by anyone.

As for the question of how long one must wait for a competitor to recover from going off the track as a result of contact by you, the answer is, you have 1 lap from the point of contact to allow that driver to regain his position in front of you.  This means you do not have to park and wait for him.  It means you should slowly keep going so as to minimize the loss of distance to the leaders while the off track car eventually catches up to you.  Then you simply allow him to pass you at speed.  This is better than parking on the track, and losing a lot of distance, and, where you might become a hazard to other drivers.

A big thanks to OneShot for posting this.  It helps everyone to see how we look at things, and helps everyone be a little more educated about the rules and how to behave.

thx for the clarification

1. xxJ0n4Th0Nxx

2. Road Atlanta, 29th July 2023, season 20

3. Lap 34

4. Squeezed wide, xxJ0n4Th0Nxx and Flavored Atoms

4. Making a pass on the back straight, squeezed out toward edge of track. Didn't get forced completely off track but left no room to pass without potentially going off

1. ZAR Eries
2. Road Atlanta, s20, Transam 29/07/2023
3. Numerous corners multiple lapss
4. Lightning rear ending Eries on more than a couple occasions
5. On more than one occasion, and due to the challenger not having the same handling as the Camaro, Lightning ran into the back of my car on many occasions. It is also not the first race. As a follower driver, you are to adapt to the people you are racing against. The constant bumping u settles the car and could cause a driver to lose control and lose positions.

AARoneshot
Road Atlanta,29/07/2023
Eries improper track merger
lap 2/3
eries tried to over take me on down hill straight. blow the brake zone and went 2 cars deep into the grass.
he then drives right back into traffic in front of lightning and don almost causing a crash

jason\"1shot" wrote:AARoneshot
Road Atlanta,29/07/2023
Eries improper track merger
lap 2/3
eries tried to over take me on down hill straight. blow the brake zone and went 2 cars deep into the grass.
he then drives right back into traffic in front of lightning and don almost causing a crash

"Eries went off the track at the end of the back straight and was forced to avoid hitting the tire wall and possibly bounce back into traffic but instead managed to stay as much to the right as possible with wheels fully cocked to the right.  Unfortunately, his momentum was still too great and he re-entered the track right in front of Lightning who had already committed to his line.  Lightning smacked into the back of Eries as a result thus impeding Lightning.  This is considered an unsafe re-entry to the racing surface.  Eries earns a warning/strike, but because Lightning did not lose a position from the contact to anyone including to Eries, there is no points penalty."


I'd like to add to OneShot's investigation, from a part of a post I have quoted above in the Road Atlanta subreddit. Don lost 2 to 3 positions for foreseeing Eries having a poor track merge. This all would have been avoided if Eries stayed as far right as possible and not merge the way he did.


Edited (examples of what not to include or list): Lined out the parts that aren't applicable
1: Not related to One Shot
2: No official Log from Lightning - no piggybacking

We need to be clear here.

You can log an investigation regarding yourself only.

Please ask Don to log an incident if he was affected.

Neither One shot or Lightnings logging or comments are regarding them being affected. So Don will rule as such.

You can't add to another racers incident log, you have to create your own, between yourself and the assumed culprit.

I told Don this as well. The warning I received, off course will be gladly accepted the moment Lightning logs and incident. We clearly stated in the teams meeting, which was approved and accepted by all the team leads that ONLY logged incidents will be investigated, between the incident logger and the culprit. And first lap, Don still checks that.

One shot log ... How did incident affect him ... Outcome none, so no ruling.
Lightning didn't log an incident ... Outcome none, so no ruling.

The only person that were actually affected looks like Don, and he then would need to log it.

This way, we don't end up with people with sour grapes towards someone else, looking for a way to try and get even. We simply won't allow that. If it is found that this is the case, where you in a sense stalk a racer on replay looking for wrong doing, you will yourself receive a penalty. This is not a kindergarten ... Act accordingly. If you see something on track or replay, please ask the person affected to log an incident. They themselves are the first line of judgement, and if they don't want to log it, then that's where it stays 

Can you imagine a free for all, where I go watch the replay and start logging incidents on behalf of someone else? Nope not gonna happen.

So final here:

1. Lightning, please log the incident officially from your side, so that I can receive my warning, thanks.

2. Don please log the incident from your side if it is penalty worthy.

3. One shot, so on you log, you need to state to Don how you were affected, so that he can rule on that.

1. xLightning16x
2. July 29, 2023 Road Atlanta.
3. 2 of 35
4. Poor track merging involving myself and GtDon2
5. End of backstretch under heavy braking, Eries misjudged the corner and overshot his braking point causing him to go off track. Upon merging back onto the track, he crossed the main racing line Infront of myself and forcing his teammate GtDon2 to go wide and off track, as he foresaw the track merge.

Edit: You can't log on behalf of someone else, I made this crystal clear, Don has to log for himself. I accept the warning, Don gave due to the infringement on you, sorry about that.

Leaving out important information about the full scope of an incident seems like a mistake in my opinion. One person making a post about a full incident stops multiple wasted posts and allows the penalties to be issued faster and more accurately. Why do you need potentially 5 people involved in one incident to make 5 separate posts that is a massive waste of time and inefficient. If penalties/strikes/warnings need to be dealt out then all parties that qualify for such can be given those as the investigation closes instead of waiting for another log to appear and then re look into the issue at hand no need to make it harder for yourself. Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this statement but it seemed to make the most sense to place it here.

Solution: Involved parties contact their team leaders the leaders have a conversation about the incident one log with a comprehensive list of the situation and peoples involved is made easier work for everyone. I would suggest a discord call or xbox party call or something of that nature as text can be misinterpreted at times.

D1mien wrote:Leaving out important information about the full scope of an incident seems like a mistake in my opinion. One person making a post about a full incident stops multiple wasted posts and allows the penalties to be issued faster and more accurately. Why do you need potentially 5 people involved in one incident to make 5 separate posts that is a massive waste of time and inefficient. If penalties/strikes/warnings need to be dealt out then all parties that qualify for such can be given those as the investigation closes instead of waiting for another log to appear and then re look into the issue at hand no need to make it harder for yourself. Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this statement but it seemed to make the most sense to place it here.

Solution: Involved parties contact their team leaders the leaders have a conversation about the incident one log with a comprehensive list of the situation and peoples involved is made easier work for everyone. I would suggest a discord call or xbox party call or something of that nature as text can be misinterpreted at times.

Yeah, I think maybe people have missed the point here.  We do only want those who feel they were negatively affected by an incident to log a protest.  What we don't want or need is multiple 3rd party folks who were not involved logging protests on behalf of those who were affected.

GTDon2 wrote:

D1mien wrote:Leaving out important information about the full scope of an incident seems like a mistake in my opinion. One person making a post about a full incident stops multiple wasted posts and allows the penalties to be issued faster and more accurately. Why do you need potentially 5 people involved in one incident to make 5 separate posts that is a massive waste of time and inefficient. If penalties/strikes/warnings need to be dealt out then all parties that qualify for such can be given those as the investigation closes instead of waiting for another log to appear and then re look into the issue at hand no need to make it harder for yourself. Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this statement but it seemed to make the most sense to place it here.

Solution: Involved parties contact their team leaders the leaders have a conversation about the incident one log with a comprehensive list of the situation and peoples involved is made easier work for everyone. I would suggest a discord call or xbox party call or something of that nature as text can be misinterpreted at times.

Yeah, I think maybe people have missed the point here.  We do only want those who feel they were negatively affected by an incident to log a protest.  What we don't want or need is multiple 3rd party folks who were not involved logging protests on behalf of those who were affected.

My solution solves your argument here because all parties involved talk to each other first to hammer out the one post with all the information so everyone is included in the conversation meaning all affected individuals. The exact situation after the race is 4 drivers involved in an incident Lightning, Don, Eries, and 1shot get with their team leaders explain the situation with their team leaders. The team leaders in turn group up and talk the problem over listing all involved parties and the situation then lodge a single post for moderation thus saving issues on the administration side of things.

Don you told me the other night that if I ever see an incident I should say something about it but as the rules are stated I am not allowed to do such a thing as I may not be the one involved in the incident. Am I to take that to mean I come to you directly with a perceived issue? Or should I post it here so it gets deleted because I am not involved. My solution makes teams come together more even in cases of an unfortunate event hopefully strengthening team cooperation something you also mentioned in our talk the other day. If you get known team leaders to come together to talk about an issue before sending it off for investigation I would imagine it makes things easier for all involved.

Fewer posts about the same issue all people involved had to participate in the chat about the incident so nobody is left out. All peoples deserving of warnings/strikes/penalties get those. I don't see any negatives in this situation it falls in line with what you said you wanted for the IFCA for defined team leaders and more team cohesion. People can gravitate to teams or leaders they see eye to eye with a bit better even if only for resolving issues.

D1mien wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:

D1mien wrote:Leaving out important information about the full scope of an incident seems like a mistake in my opinion. One person making a post about a full incident stops multiple wasted posts and allows the penalties to be issued faster and more accurately. Why do you need potentially 5 people involved in one incident to make 5 separate posts that is a massive waste of time and inefficient. If penalties/strikes/warnings need to be dealt out then all parties that qualify for such can be given those as the investigation closes instead of waiting for another log to appear and then re look into the issue at hand no need to make it harder for yourself. Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this statement but it seemed to make the most sense to place it here.

Solution: Involved parties contact their team leaders the leaders have a conversation about the incident one log with a comprehensive list of the situation and peoples involved is made easier work for everyone. I would suggest a discord call or xbox party call or something of that nature as text can be misinterpreted at times.

Yeah, I think maybe people have missed the point here.  We do only want those who feel they were negatively affected by an incident to log a protest.  What we don't want or need is multiple 3rd party folks who were not involved logging protests on behalf of those who were affected.

My solution solves your argument here because all parties involved talk to each other first to hammer out the one post with all the information so everyone is included in the conversation meaning all affected individuals. The exact situation after the race is 4 drivers involved in an incident Lightning, Don, Eries, and 1shot get with their team leaders explain the situation with their team leaders. The team leaders in turn group up and talk the problem over listing all involved parties and the situation then lodge a single post for moderation thus saving issues on the administration side of things.

Don you told me the other night that if I ever see an incident I should say something about it but as the rules are stated I am not allowed to do such a thing as I may not be the one involved in the incident. Am I to take that to mean I come to you directly with a perceived issue? Or should I post it here so it gets deleted because I am not involved. My solution makes teams come together more even in cases of an unfortunate event hopefully strengthening team cooperation something you also mentioned in our talk the other day. If you get known team leaders to come together to talk about an issue before sending it off for investigation I would imagine it makes things easier for all involved.

Fewer posts about the same issue all people involved had to participate in the chat about the incident so nobody is left out. All peoples deserving of warnings/strikes/penalties get those. I don't see any negatives in this situation it falls in line with what you said you wanted for the IFCA for defined team leaders and more team cohesion. People can gravitate to teams or leaders they see eye to eye with a bit better even if only for resolving issues.

Let me respectfully preface this by saying I think it is great that you Wolf (and others) are taking an interest in this way.  This is what we want to see here at the IFCA.  We want people to take ownership and be a part of the solution crowd, and not the problem crowd.  It isn't enough just to protest or complain about a thing, you must also offer up solutions too.

But, I'm not quite on board with the assumption you are making however, because I think it is suggesting that team members who had nothing to do with an incident should have something to say about it.  This is in opposition to what we want.  All we want is for a driver who feels he was directly disadvantaged by another driver to file or log the protest, period.  That's it.  Very simple.  We don't need committees.  We don't need people speaking up for others.  We don't need anyone running around playing IFCA sheriff.  We don't need teams or drivers using the system for retribution or payback.  We don't need multiple repeat protests and opinions. And we don't need snitches.

That being said, I am very open to the premise of your suggestion if it can be practical and quickly arranged.  I'm okay with filtering protests through a team leader and then having that leader file the protest after he hears and sees what happened.  I'm less interested in including every team leader in every incident that didn't involve his team.

As for the reporting of something to me, that was more in the context of awareness rather than issuing any penalties.  But let me be clear.  In the past I was the judge, jury, and executioner, but now, with the newest league rules, things have changed from this to a more graduated form.  We are spreading the authority out and to the team leaders, and away from my dictatorship.  We feel that by including team leaders and drivers and making them more a part of the power structure if you will, people like yourself will become more involved.  And this is what we want.  

The trick is to avoid diluting everything into a pure democracy where the mob rules.  It has to be more of a representative governance in other words.  No one has the time to listen and act on every whim of 30+ people every week is why.  So we need team leaders to be the voices of the IFCA.  This is the direction we have taken and it is the direction we plan on keeping.

If what you are saying is that official protests should only be filed after the team leader has reviewed everything, I'm fine with that.  If you are saying that each team leader needs to be a part of judging every protest, I'm not in favor of that.

Again, thanks for the input.  This is highly valued and exactly what we want to see more of.

Agree

Wolf, we don't want to see witch hunts.

It becomes dangerous territory, where if anyone can log a protest will start trawling and stalking racers on the replay due to them having a gripe

So as per above.

I log for where I was affected.

You can state there were others involved too, of course, but you can't start judging on what exactly happened to them.

I have in the past been wronged many times and well, just let it be. It is My decision to raise an incident or not. Not some IFCA policeman.

Sorry, I didn't have time earlier to read through all posts fully, just scanned through.

I am all for discussions, as long as the involved parties are doing it.

I am all for a racer talking to his team leader as well, etc.

I am all for logging an incident and listing all parties concerned.

I am however not for starting to deliver an outcome as if the decision has been made as part of the incident.

I will use the lightning and Eries incident.

It was NOT a One shot incident as he wasn't affected at all. So for him to even log it, was not correct t, that's border line policing.

Lightning logs the incident as he smashed into Eries. He doesn't fully want to rule, but just state what he feels is the cause from his opinion.

Better wording here as example would be.

Incident:
It looks like Eries was trying to make a move in One shot but overshot the corner, and he had to re-enter the track. He did so, but I had already committed to my line and he entered right in front of me. Don was to my outside and there was no way for me to avoid contact. Please check whether was an unsafe entry?

It does seem like Don was also affected, but I can't call on this. Maybe Don can check and add to this log if he was affected and wants to also have this investigated from his perspective.

I have Zero issue with above.

We all know what happened, we aren't stupid. It was Eries mistake 100%, but we can't assume this, it will be judged accordingly. Don has always been 100% fair and transparent, well 99% of the time. He has sometimes made a mistake, but has always been open to revisit and look again. And yes he has in the past overturned his own initial assessments. He is an open book, has always been, but just approach it without attitude, keep it calm, collected and civil (I can learn from this for sure).

Same as the incident with Lightning rear ending me. I was calmly stating, please check that, I even used please. The outburst due to my nature (I know, I need to not, but I'm trying) got me going. Okay so I was nice, now what, and then I become a blabbering idiot sometimes. Sorry bout that.

From my perspective, why would you even try and justify it. Just say, man I'm sorry, and done. That's all I wanted to hear. Just a sorry mate.

We can all get very emotional sometimes, and I spoke to Whiskey the day after, said sorry, and he gave me his side as well, yes we were both a bit wrong, but it is sorted. 3am for me, just lagged out, season is now screwed, let the team down, and not in the mood for casual chit chat. Same with Whiskey, had his reasons as well. Which is why I always say, log the incident as in the moment, nothing is going to be solved, it will turn into a mud slinging contest.

But yeah, I am sure there were many incidents that didn't involve me, and even if I see it on the replay, I won't log it. I might reach out to the racer that was affected and let them know, but that's where it will stay for me, I can't decide for someone else whether they want to act on what happened in their race. I can ensure you, a scrap between team mates will almost never end up being logged as an incident as it is usually dealt with between them. They are team mates.

I recorded the incident between John and Atoms. I let John know, and shared the recording. It was 100% for him to decide whether he wanted it logged.

What was wrong was after the race, in the chat mentioning the incident, here I apologize if I said anything, cause same as mentioned above. Leave it, log it, get a judgement. No need to discuss it, I am neither judge or Jury ever in any ruling. I will sustain in future.

I love racing with you guys, and won't wake up to race at 2am if it wasn't the case, remember that. Next time you pitch up to race, remember that each and every racer in the lobby was there to have fun and race. Some normal hours, some crazy stupid hours. Eries and Nova qualy at 12am and race at 1am. John qualy also early Sunday mornings. We certainly won't do this is you all werent a bunch of swell guys!

Peace

GTDon2 wrote:

D1mien wrote:

GTDon2 wrote:

D1mien wrote:Leaving out important information about the full scope of an incident seems like a mistake in my opinion. One person making a post about a full incident stops multiple wasted posts and allows the penalties to be issued faster and more accurately. Why do you need potentially 5 people involved in one incident to make 5 separate posts that is a massive waste of time and inefficient. If penalties/strikes/warnings need to be dealt out then all parties that qualify for such can be given those as the investigation closes instead of waiting for another log to appear and then re look into the issue at hand no need to make it harder for yourself. Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for this statement but it seemed to make the most sense to place it here.

Solution: Involved parties contact their team leaders the leaders have a conversation about the incident one log with a comprehensive list of the situation and peoples involved is made easier work for everyone. I would suggest a discord call or xbox party call or something of that nature as text can be misinterpreted at times.

Yeah, I think maybe people have missed the point here.  We do only want those who feel they were negatively affected by an incident to log a protest.  What we don't want or need is multiple 3rd party folks who were not involved logging protests on behalf of those who were affected.

My solution solves your argument here because all parties involved talk to each other first to hammer out the one post with all the information so everyone is included in the conversation meaning all affected individuals. The exact situation after the race is 4 drivers involved in an incident Lightning, Don, Eries, and 1shot get with their team leaders explain the situation with their team leaders. The team leaders in turn group up and talk the problem over listing all involved parties and the situation then lodge a single post for moderation thus saving issues on the administration side of things.

Don you told me the other night that if I ever see an incident I should say something about it but as the rules are stated I am not allowed to do such a thing as I may not be the one involved in the incident. Am I to take that to mean I come to you directly with a perceived issue? Or should I post it here so it gets deleted because I am not involved. My solution makes teams come together more even in cases of an unfortunate event hopefully strengthening team cooperation something you also mentioned in our talk the other day. If you get known team leaders to come together to talk about an issue before sending it off for investigation I would imagine it makes things easier for all involved.

Fewer posts about the same issue all people involved had to participate in the chat about the incident so nobody is left out. All peoples deserving of warnings/strikes/penalties get those. I don't see any negatives in this situation it falls in line with what you said you wanted for the IFCA for defined team leaders and more team cohesion. People can gravitate to teams or leaders they see eye to eye with a bit better even if only for resolving issues.

Let me respectfully preface this by saying I think it is great that you Wolf (and others) are taking an interest in this way.  This is what we want to see here at the IFCA.  We want people to take ownership and be a part of the solution crowd, and not the problem crowd.  It isn't enough just to protest or complain about a thing, you must also offer up solutions too.

But, I'm not quite on board with the assumption you are making however, because I think it is suggesting that team members who had nothing to do with an incident should have something to say about it.  This is in opposition to what we want.  All we want is for a driver who feels he was directly disadvantaged by another driver to file or log the protest, period.  That's it.  Very simple.  We don't need committees.  We don't need people speaking up for others.  We don't need anyone running around playing IFCA sheriff.  We don't need teams or drivers using the system for retribution or payback.  We don't need multiple repeat protests and opinions. And we don't need snitches.

That being said, I am very open to the premise of your suggestion if it can be practical and quickly arranged.  I'm okay with filtering protests through a team leader and then having that leader file the protest after he hears and sees what happened.  I'm less interested in including every team leader in every incident that didn't involve his team.

As for the reporting of something to me, that was more in the context of awareness rather than issuing any penalties.  But let me be clear.  In the past I was the judge, jury, and executioner, but now, with the newest league rules, things have changed from this to a more graduated form.  We are spreading the authority out and to the team leaders, and away from my dictatorship.  We feel that by including team leaders and drivers and making them more a part of the power structure if you will, people like yourself will become more involved.  And this is what we want.  

The trick is to avoid diluting everything into a pure democracy where the mob rules.  It has to be more of a representative governance in other words.  No one has the time to listen and act on every whim of 30+ people every week is why.  So we need team leaders to be the voices of the IFCA.  This is the direction we have taken and it is the direction we plan on keeping.

If what you are saying is that official protests should only be filed after the team leader has reviewed everything, I'm fine with that.  If you are saying that each team leader needs to be a part of judging every protest, I'm not in favor of that.

Again, thanks for the input.  This is highly valued and exactly what we want to see more of.

I said all INVOLVED parties plain and simple many times in my post. I even gave you an example of how it works and it is a very quick and easy thing to do.

Eries I will answer here instead of creating another post. One shot was indeed a part of the incident where he has to go off line or slow down to compensate you flying past him on the inside. You should have stayed where you were in all honesty because oh how dangerous that area is and the line of cars coming. I watched the replay oh the incident several times you had plenty of time to stop fully but didn't and rejoined perpendicular to the track initially causing people to have to swing way wide way more wide in fact than anyone would ever take that corner. People also hit you due to the incident.

I see this as one big incident with 4 people involved from start to finish it starts with 1. You missing a braking zone and potentially slamming into One shot. 2. Rejoining the track in an unsafe manner. 3. Don swings way wider than anyone would ever swing to avoid contact. 4. Lightning hits you because there is nowhere he can possibly go. My solution says that Lightning would talk to his team leader One shot would talk to his Eries would talk to his and Don would talk to his meaning only three team leaders in this case. Those team leaders meet in a voice chat discussing the issue to include every affected driver then log for an investigation simple easy no fuss. I say team leaders because we are going with the idea that one voice should be heard from a team

As co runners of the IFCA you have put the point to the drivers to report things so drivers talking amongst themselves about an incident shouldn't worry you. I understand why you put it to the driver to log for an investigation it takes a long time to review a full replay from multiple perspectives to see if any wrong doing happened. Now in case of something happening involved parties meet discuss take down all appropriate information log a single comprehensive report of what happened with neutral language bing bang boom it's over with. It then goes to whoever is in charge of moderation which sounds like its only Don with a full list of parties affected a neutral description of what took place (we want to avoid pointing fingers so neutral language is used) making it easier for don to see what has happened and who was involved.

I don't think that and major incident should be ignored just because it was between team mates that is turning a blind eye to a potential mess with another driver later on. I only am using Saturday nights race as example because it fits quite nicely for examples of how my proposal works. I didn't make this series of posting based on Saturdays incident however, I thought about how this goes forward past this season. If the problem arises you deal with the problem.

Another example from this race is at the end of the race Atoms and myself (Wolf) were racing each other really hard as evident by the replay Eries provided while spectating from Jonathans view. We did hit each other a lot in the sense of small bangs here and there but nothing serious. For all people I would like to think that is not a reportable offense that is hard racing. I recognize that in the race Lightning ended up bumping Eries rather hard at one point moving him out of the way but instead of flying by he waited for Eries to gather himself and then they moved on. That part I would assume while not knowing would be why Lightning earned his strike which if that is the case I agree fully because that is a thing that you don't want others to imitate going forward so a strike is issued to deter others from doing such and the individual hopefully understands that you really cant do that.

It feels like the system as it stands comes down to personalities by saying all who feel affected log an investigation. Example I very rarely feel affected enough by accidents to log an investigation. I however don't think I have been caught up in any major incidents in my time in the IFCA I have been lucky for the most part. Could there be a clarification to add in making it easier to screen the log by telling all drivers to log only all significant incidents. Meaning a wreck or being moved by an opponent. I would also suggest urging drivers to speak up on all significant incidents as described in this post. I doubt you would see a change in the amount of logs because most drivers here are rather clean but accidents do happen. If it comes down to a tit for tat due to hard racing alone we all know that no penalty is going to be issued because it generally doesn't I have seen as much in the past. Don you gave me a real racing example where in the past you said you have seen drivers intentionally continue to bump drivers to make their opponent question themselves but never hit them hard enough to warrant a penalty. You also said that non of these drivers are still with the IFCA. I accept that the clarification I am asking for would potentially make this a more common issue but it seems to me that the drivers that come back race after race are fairly good at weeding out potentially hazardous drivers. I have seen people lecture others on the how things are done here to try to keep the racing as clean as possible to which I say good on you self policing is a good thing at times.

I think that when it comes down to posting we should all have a cool head don't jump to conclusions ask questions if things are not clear and get clarification. Don't be accusatory especially when logging for an investigation as the system stands now. I would like to see a change in this system for all my above reasons but still we should all be civil we are all adults here. If you are heated over an incident take a breather calm down then post with clear information and a calm mind. I started writing this post according to the website at 5:42AM it is now 7:30AM I tried my best to make things as clear as I could which takes me a long time I barely passed English in high school and college so I do my best to re read what I type to see if people can make heads or tails of it. I don't always do a good job of that though.

One other thing do you want a lot of this to be moved over to the racing discussions section or somewhere else instead of further clogging the log an investigation section? Initially this seemed like the best place but I would be glad to hop over to another section if it makes things easier.

Okay I'm with you.

I'm okay with affected to involved then.

Okay so One shot logs and others involved can add or discuss.

Short end of it would be, whom ever feels affected can ask for a ruling regarding their case then, but it needs to be singular.

I will simply not allow others to have a say regarding someone else.

If I race against Wolf and Wolf hits me off, but waits and I feel okay no worries, anyone involved in that can log, but I can state, no action required from my end. This way a ruling can't go against Wolf regarding me.

So to summarize:
1. One shot logged incident
2. Lightning said he was affected and calls for a ruling
3. Mr X was affected but doesn't ask for a ruling (Not Don as you might think this is a team mate thing)
Etc

Outcome:
1: Noted - No ruling, cause none called.
2: Noted and ruled - Warning issued, reason given
3: Noted - No ruling, cause non called.

I'm good with that. If it gets discussed in a chat, also cool, but it has to be logged officially on the Forum.

But again, I'm firm on this, no logs on here from any other racer than those Involved and no racer can call for a ruling between two racers other than if they are one of the two.

You good with this Wolf?

PS you barely passed English, English isn't even my spoken language!

ZAR Eries wrote:Okay I'm with you.

I'm okay with affected to involved then.

Okay so One shot logs and others involved can add or discuss.

Short end of it would be, whom ever feels affected can ask for a ruling regarding their case then, but it needs to be singular.

I will simply not allow others to have a say regarding someone else.

If I race against Wolf and Wolf hits me off, but waits and I feel okay no worries, anyone involved in that can log, but I can state, no action required from my end. This way a ruling can't go against Wolf regarding me.

So to summarize:
1. One shot logged incident
2. Lightning said he was affected and calls for a ruling
3. Mr X was affected but doesn't ask for a ruling (Not Don as you might think this is a team mate thing)
Etc

Outcome:
1: Noted - No ruling, cause none called.
2: Noted and ruled - Warning issued, reason given
3: Noted - No ruling, cause non called.

I'm good with that. If it gets discussed in a chat, also cool, but it has to be logged officially on the Forum.

But again, I'm firm on this, no logs on here from any other racer than those Involved and no racer can call for a ruling between two racers other than if they are one of the two.

You good with this Wolf?

PS you barely passed English, English isn't even my spoken language!

You are almost on the same page as me you got most of my intent. Your initial summary of "If I race against Wolf and Wolf hits me off, but waits and I feel okay no worries, anyone involved in that can log, but I can state, no action required from my end. This way a ruling can't go against Wolf regarding me." is close but I would still have the two drivers talk to their team leaders then those team leaders meet to discuss then log if necessary.

One log as discussed by both team leaders of the affected drivers. Team leaders come to an agreement on how the event happened or work with each other to get there then the post is made.

Mostly the posting of the incident on the site would look the same from the admins perspective. This is mostly to clear up any confusion on the racers end of things and potentially clear up any misunderstandings before needing moderation. This goes in to my point of not needing multiple logs for the same incident.

Eries I agree that only those involved are allowed to be part of the discussion for the most part. A slight addendum would be that if the team leaders agree to ask for other drivers perspectives of the incident (if others were nearby to see it happen) to get other eyes on the situation but ONLY if the team leaders can fully agree on that if not it should be dropped. I say that so a clearer picture of the situation can be made and if someone is wildly off on their assessment of something you can tell right away because you have multiple statements from people about how it happened. AGAIN ONLY if the TEAM LEADERS agree on it.

I would agree with Don that I would like to see the team leader position begin to mean something more than just oh I guess ill lead the team this season then just move on next season. It would be nice to see renewed team leaders each season as we already have but to make that a little bit stronger.

I see Saturday night as a unique incident honestly as we don't see this type of thing happen very often especially the way it did. With involving two members of the same team then two other drivers. My other idea would be if the team leader is involved perhaps another member could act as a rep for one instance but this is all just theory as to how to make the system work better for everyone anyhow. I would like to have a larger discussion with more voices at some point to get other points or counter points as well. I know not everybody that races here uses the website or reads the posts on it. As I said with Don when I first joined I didn't really read much on the website and I wasn't very involved I was just here to race.

This will be the last time I use Saturday night as an example I would see it going this way ideally. I see this as a unique incident honestly as we don't see this type of thing happen very often.
1. Don and Eries talk about the situation with their team leader. (Grouped as you two are on the same team also one of you is labeled as team leader)
2. Lightning talks to his team leader. (He is team leader in this instance as well)
3. One Shot talks to him team leader.
4. All of the team leaders of the affected drivers come together to have a chat about the incident and work to agree on what happened and what to put down on the description of the incident. The rules that are already in place for using neutral language to explain the situation is perfect in my opinion.
5. The team leaders would agree on what TEAM LEADER posts the log for investigation if required after the chat.
6. The elected team leader make the post with the relevant information for moderation.

Example using Saturday night (This is the only part where I will make assumptions)

1. Lightning
2. July 29th, Road Atlanta, Season 20
3. Lap 2
4. GtDon,Oneshot,Lightning,Eries (As agreed upon by team leaders of all involved)
5. Eries misses braking point accidentally dives the inside past Oneshot. Oneshot slows to avoid Eries. Eries goes off track on the opposite side of the track. Eries rejoins the track at an inopportune time causing Don to swerve off track and Lightning to crash into the back of Eries. (The description of how events took place would be agreed upon by the team leaders of the affected drivers.) I injected my view of the situation here after watching it multiple times on replay to try to understand what happened and why.

That is how I would think it would be sent I have never logged one so I had to make some references lol. I used non aggressive language and stated things as they happened. That would be ideal so it is easy to follow what happened. I fully agree with you saying previously that there can be no tagging on to an incident no piggy backing. In the proposed solution all available and important information concerning the incident is included in the description therefore, reducing any additional risk of people even wanting to piggy back on to the conversation as all peoples involved had their say.

Things then go in for moderation and the moderator looks at the incident from start to finish verifying information and assesses the situation and hands out Warnings/Strikes/Penalties as required.

No here I am firm, the team leaders aren't going to start to decide anything. They can discuss sure, but the team leaders are just racers as well and if not involved they really have no voice here.

Look I'm not against what you are suggesting, and if the racer has the final say then yes, do it, but the moment the racer is dictated to what to do regarding something that affected them and they feel differently to what the discussion between teams comes to, I'm not going to disagree.

We aren't going to allow team leaders to become little dictators with regards to what the IFCA does or not regarding penalties etc

At the IFCA it is about the racer, not the club/team etc. It just ends badly, been there done that, and that is the sole reason why Forza itself ditched all club features out of the game.

I would then rather have IFCA staff members filling the role of investigating incidents as they will function with the interest of the IFCA and not the teams, here staff can also be team leaders, but their power will stem from being staff, not a team leader.

The voice of the racer is king over here. They are what makes the team not the other way around. Having teams is awesome, but in the end the racer and their enjoyment of the game is what matters most.

That's just my take on it. I'm open to discuss this further, always. Change my mind ...

ZAR Eries wrote:No here I am firm, the team leaders aren't going to start to decide anything. They can discuss sure, but the team leaders are just racers as well and if not involved they really have no voice here.

Look I'm not against what you are suggesting, and if the racer has the final say then yes, do it, but the moment the racer is dictated to what to do regarding something that affected them and they feel differently to what the discussion between teams comes to, I'm not going to disagree.

We aren't going to allow team leaders to become little dictators with regards to what the IFCA does or not regarding penalties etc

At the IFCA it is about the racer, not the club/team etc. It just ends badly, been there done that, and that is the sole reason why Forza itself ditched all club features out of the game.

I would then rather have IFCA staff members filling the role of investigating incidents as they will function with the interest of the IFCA and not the teams, here staff can also be team leaders, but their power will stem from being staff, not a team leader.

The voice of the racer is king over here. They are what makes the team not the other way around.

This feels like you are intentionally misreading what I am saying now. The affected drivers talk to their team leader to explain the entire situation then the team leaders meet and discuss what was said from the drivers then come to a mutual understanding of what happened this isnt complicated. I literally said that the posts look the same its just easy to have to team leaders speak instead of potentially 20 voices. Everyone involved has their say. Team leaders relay information from drivers to other team leaders. Team leaders agree or discuss further. Post.

On your "We aren't going to allow team leaders to become little dictators with regards to what the IFCA does or not regarding penalties etc

At the IFCA it is about the racer, not the club/team etc. It just ends badly, been there done that, and that is the sole reason why Forza itself ditched all club features out of the game.

I would then rather have IFCA staff members filling the role of investigating incidents as they will function with the interest of the IFCA and not the teams, here staff can also be team leaders, but their power will stem from being staff, not a team leader.

The voice of the racer is king over here. They are what makes the team not the other way around"

It sounds like you and Don need to have a good long chat about what each of you wants for the IFCA because I am getting severely different ideas from each of you with that statement. Don told me he wants more emphasis on the TEAM and TEAM LEADERS that they actually mean something. For them to be something the people are drawn to but if you put no emphasis on being in a team or being a team lead what is the point of it all then? We might as well be allowed to participate as a single entity which I was told is not allowed. Of course the racers voice is heard nobody would ever silence the racer. Do you think any single racer in the league would put up with someone misrepresenting how an incident took place. I can tell you the answer.... it is not a chance.